Recreational Scup Proposals

[george]

The northern states (NY-MA) have the potential to liberalize rec scup regulations and I wanted to vet some potential changes with you and maybe your readers. Most of the changes are aimed at achieving greater consistency with the federal regulations currently in place (9”, 50 fish, open all year). Please share as you see fit. NY will be discussing the options with other states (MA, RI, and CT) and coming to an agreement about how to move forward. Note that options 2 and 3 were not approved by the ASMFC and are not “on the table”. Timing will make it difficult to have anything in place for the earlier part of the 2019 season.

Increase the for-hire sector bag limit to 50 fish for the current bonus season (Wave 3 for MA and Wave 5 for RI-NY)

Increase the bag limit to 50 fish for all fishing modes for the current bonus season

Increase the bag limit to 50 fish for all fishing modes and for the entire current fishing season (May 1-December 31)

A Year Round Season (365 days, open Waves 1 and 2) at 30 fish with a 45 fish possession limit during the current bonus season for the for-hire sector (Wave 3 for MA and Wave 5 for RI-NY)

Maintain current May 1-December 31 season, but have a 50 fish bag limit in two bonus season waves for the for-hire sector (one in Wave 3 and one in Wave 5)

Maintain current May 1-December 31 season, but have a 50 fish bag limit in a bonus season that extends across two waves for the for-hire sector (Waves 3-4 for MA; Waves 5-6 for RI-NY)

Increase the for-hire bonus season to 50 fish and a year round season (365 days, open Waves 1 and 2) for all modes under current bag limit of 30 fish

 

[Roccus7]

The northern states (NY-MA) have the potential to liberalize rec scup regulations and I wanted to vet some potential changes with you and maybe your readers. Most of the changes are aimed at achieving greater consistency with the federal regulations currently in place (9”, 50 fish, open all year). Please share as you see fit. NY will be discussing the options with other states (MA, RI, and CT) and coming to an agreement about how to move forward. Note that options 2 and 3 were not approved by the ASMFC and are not “on the table”. Timing will make it difficult to have anything in place for the earlier part of the 2019 season.

Increase the for-hire sector bag limit to 50 fish for the current bonus season (Wave 3 for MA and Wave 5 for RI-NY)

Increase the bag limit to 50 fish for all fishing modes for the current bonus season

Increase the bag limit to 50 fish for all fishing modes and for the entire current fishing season (May 1-December 31)

A Year Round Season (365 days, open Waves 1 and 2) at 30 fish with a 45 fish possession limit during the current bonus season for the for-hire sector (Wave 3 for MA and Wave 5 for RI-NY)

Maintain current May 1-December 31 season, but have a 50 fish bag limit in two bonus season waves for the for-hire sector (one in Wave 3 and one in Wave 5)

Maintain current May 1-December 31 season, but have a 50 fish bag limit in a bonus season that extends across two waves for the for-hire sector (Waves 3-4 for MA; Waves 5-6 for RI-NY)

Increase the for-hire bonus season to 50 fish and a year round season (365 days, open Waves 1 and 2) for all modes under current bag limit of 30 fish

George: Please annotate so we know what Options 1, 2 & 3 are. It’s tough to discern what’s what above.

In general, I’m leery of anything that gives “For Hire” looser restrictions than refs. That just starts the debate of whether or not they should be counted as comms.

 

[george]

This is a letter from a dec official with some ideas they're kicking around at this point.

 

[Scupper]

The northern states (NY-MA) have the potential to liberalize rec scup regulations and I wanted to vet some potential changes with you and maybe your readers. Most of the changes are aimed at achieving greater consistency with the federal regulations currently in place (9”, 50 fish, open all year). Please share as you see fit. NY will be discussing the options with other states (MA, RI, and CT) and coming to an agreement about how to move forward. Note that options 2 and 3 were not approved by the ASMFC and are not “on the table”. Timing will make it difficult to have anything in place for the earlier part of the 2019 season.

Increase the for-hire sector bag limit to 50 fish for the current bonus season (Wave 3 for MA and Wave 5 for RI-NY)

Increase the bag limit to 50 fish for all fishing modes for the current bonus season

Increase the bag limit to 50 fish for all fishing modes and for the entire current fishing season (May 1-December 31)

A Year Round Season (365 days, open Waves 1 and 2) at 30 fish with a 45 fish possession limit during the current bonus season for the for-hire sector (Wave 3 for MA and Wave 5 for RI-NY)

Maintain current May 1-December 31 season, but have a 50 fish bag limit in two bonus season waves for the for-hire sector (one in Wave 3 and one in Wave 5)

Maintain current May 1-December 31 season, but have a 50 fish bag limit in a bonus season that extends across two waves for the for-hire sector (Waves 3-4 for MA; Waves 5-6 for RI-NY)

Increase the for-hire bonus season to 50 fish and a year round season (365 days, open Waves 1 and 2) for all modes under current bag limit of 30 fish

I'm kinda of an 'anti ' reg type of guy .. That being said isn't 25 or 30 porgies per person enough ?

 

[Capt13]

I'm kinda of an 'anti ' reg type of guy .. That being said isn't 25 or 30 porgies per person enough ?

I'm with you Scupper ....... however my thinking is if we are talking about a 50 fish limit, do we really need any recreational regs at all?

 

[captmike28]

I have a number of hard-core Porgy fans that charter me each year and none of them seem to be upset over a 30 fish per man limit in the spring and summer months. I tend to agree with the last two fellows that 30 is really enough fish and going to 50 all season long would be an all out slaughter and a slippery slope leading to a lot of waste. Frankly, from my own perspective, I don't even see the need for the current fall "bonus season".

Don't forget that the fish we target in the Peconics in the spring are the really huge spawners. There is substantially more meat on those fish than the typical summer run fish. Also, haven't we already learned our lesson as to what happens to any species when you continually target the most important reproductive class of fish?

I realize there are lots of reasons why the Winter Flounder fishery collapsed in NY waters. I, for one, am really happy that the Porgy fishing has taken up some of the gap. Some might think it can never happen to Porgies but most of us who have been around for a while have seen one species or another fall into sharp decline due to overharvesting, regardless of the method employed.

 

[Capt13]

..... Some might think it can never happen to Porgies but most of us who have been around for a while have seen one species or another fall into sharp decline due to overharvesting, regardless of the method employed.

Has there ever been any species of saltwater fish put into a major decline due to recreational fishing pressure alone?

 

[Scupper]

Has there ever been any species of saltwater fish put into a major decline due to recreational fishing pressure alone?

Bluefish have been scarce lately without much commercial or recreational pressure ..
Flounder which has been proven to be a resident fish have all but vanished from W Long Island Sound without commercial pressure and lately little Rec pressure as well .

 

[captmike28]

Admittedly, I am not a Fisheries Biologist so the comments I offer are based upon over 60 years of observing the trends in the species of fish I have targeted on LI and what I have read in various publications and on line.

I agree with Scupper that the declines in Bluefish numbers are a bit of a mystery as they are not typically harvested in great numbers for the commercial market. Nevertheless, I too have seen the Bluefish catches decline in recent years, which can be a problem when Striped Bass limits are one per person and my charters love to catch a fish that puts up a significant fight.

When it comes to Winter Flounder, as I mentioned earlier, I believe it is a combination of factors that contributed to the decline in this species. No doubt, the pollution of our bay systems with runoff from adjacent properties using tremendous amounts of fertilizer was one part of the story. The huge explosion of the number of Seals, partly due to the Marine Mammal Protection legislation is another. Those animals must eat hundreds of pounds of fish daily just to survive and Flounder are a staple of their diet. Certainly the excellent table quality of this fish caused them to be the target of a very active commercial industry and took its toll.

However, on recreational side of things many anglers, including myself at a much younger and less informed age, used to catch and keep what I would now consider to be "sinful" amounts of this fish. During the time frame from the late 50's through most of the 70's the fish was so plentiful that I feel many folks really lost their common sense when it came to deciding how many Flounder to keep on a good day. During those times the bottom of Moriches Bay and the Hampton Bays were literally paved with Winter Flounder. Those from my age group will clearly remember the area in the Shinnecock Bay known as the "Basket Grounds" On most outings it was very easy to fill a "Bushel Basket" full of Winter Flounder in a short time. Sadly, I witnessed many of these "so called" fisherman discard a substantial portion of these catches at the dock as they quickly became tired of cleaning so many fish.

So, can recreational fishing pressure alone contribute to the demise of a given species? Probably no single factor will do that but we can sure put ourselves in a bad position by wasting a valuable resource.

 

[Scupper]

Plenty of flounder until the 'bird' showed up late 70's / early 80's .... We have a few seals down to the west , but I won't call it a big number .... Fluke as well eat a lot of flounder fry ......
Blues are in a natural cycle [ is my guess } as are weakfish ....
I too think we could do with a lot less fetilizer .... Clam sets around Long Island are DISMAL .... The tradition of Baymen harvesting wild clams is becoming less and less . Spoke to a Bayman this afternoon , his Little Neck production has declined to the point that he is unable to supply his small restaurant customers ......Many are leaving the business , some are leaving the State .

 

[Dx life Rx fishing]

There have been a bunch of "Moon Snails" (think that is what they are called) decimating the clams last 2 years in Huntington waters. As per 2 clammers out of Huntington. Small burr holes in many empty clam shells.

 

[Roccus7]

George, just what is triggering this “Giveaway”?? Does DEC see increased porgy limits as a dollop of KY Jelly to ease the pain of potential new restrictions on other species??

I’m so glad that many here have commented that the current regs are more than adequate and DEC. needs to know that. Now we need to know DEC’s motivation for this largesse. The cynic in me is afraid it’s a prelude to BOHICA!!

 

[Falhooked]

Hello folks, my thoughts on the Porgy regulations are to liberalize the take to year round with a lower creel number in the additional waves. Here's my observations. While targeting cod the past three months out of Montauk and fishing the Block Island grounds, the Porgy were there until the last trip last week of January. The December and January incidental Porgy catch per person was about one to two dozen when the bite happened. Most were returned to fight another day some got bent, some got mangled, some were put in coolers by the usual suspects.
Why make them suspects? The catch was incidental and not targeted with a high return mortality rate. It seemed every where we dropped the Porgy got in the way of the cod and could not be avoided. Out east it seems to be a robust population of Porgy despite the repeated years of targeting them in the late spring Peconic spawn and fall runs.

 

[Scupper]

There have been a bunch of "Moon Snails" (think that is what they are called) decimating the clams last 2 years in Huntington waters. As per 2 clammers out of Huntington. Small burr holes in many empty clam shells.

Moon snails have been a problem for the past few years , my guys now say they are gone ......
The real problem is lack of seed [ recruitment] . They are not spawning / growing as they have in the past ... Well seasoned guys in the Northport / Huntington area are struggling to do a bag of neck in a day , Oyster By is no better .
Some of the 'biggest ' names in the business from Huntington / Northport have left the State , others have taken 'land ' jobs .........
The seed stopped appearing in Great South Bay in the 1980's , now its not showing on the North Shore , including CT . I speak to operators in CT with leases over 2,000 acres spread out from West to East , they too are deeply concerned on the lack of seed .

 

[Capt13]

George, just what is triggering this “Giveaway”?? Does DEC see increased porgy limits as a dollop of KY Jelly to ease the pain of potential new restrictions on other species??

I’m so glad that many here have commented that the current regs are more than adequate and DEC. needs to know that. Now we need to know DEC’s motivation for this largesse. The cynic in me is afraid it’s a prelude to BOHICA!!

Just as poor management can lead to a decline, it can also lead to an unhealthy overabundance. At what point do we eliminate the bag limit on a fish? At 50, my opinion is that a bag limit and season are not needed.

 

[BennyV]

What’s a flounder?

Just kidding. It’s so sad. I know a few spots to the West in the LIS that produce for a few weeks and that’s it. I wish more could/would be done on the conservation side in regards to them. Hopefully it’s not too late to turn it around.