A NY Striped Bass Meeting concerned fishermen should attend or tune into December 10 @ 17:00

[Roccus7]

Sorry for the late notice, but just caught wind of this...

On December 10, there will be a special meeting of New York's Marine Resources Advisory Council, which is being held to advise New York's representatives to the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission's Atlantic Striped Bass Advisory Panel as to what 2025 regulations should be put in place.

While the meeting will focus on MRAC member's comments, there will almost certainly be at least some opportunity for public input.

One can expect the for-hire fleet to fill the room, arguing against any additional protections for the striped bass stock, claiming that the stock is healthy, that they're seeing the best fishing they've ever seen, etc.

If there aren't any concerned bass fishermen in the audience to argue for striped bass conservation, the for-hires' comments will be the only ones that the ASMFC reps hear, and they could well be influenced by what they hear. Folks should try to show up if they can.

The meeting will run from 5:00 to 7:00, and will be held at the DEC Marine Division Headquarters in Kings Park.

If you can't make the meeting, there will also be an opportunity to listen in on line, but it's not clear whether non-MRAC members will be able to comment online.

This in the webinar information:

DATE: 12/10/24
START TIME: 5:00 PM
REGION: Region 1
END TIME: 7:00 PM
LOCATION: Virtual/ DMR Office 123 Kings Park Blvd. Kings Park, NY 11754
WEBINAR LINK: Meet virtually with Cisco Webex. Anytime, anywhere, on any device.
WEBINAR NUMBER: 2824 692 0485
WEBINAR PASSWORD: Welcome1 (93526631 when dialing from a phone or video system)

 

[OVERBORED]

You assume that the recs who show up would not support the for-hire lobby. Most recs are thrilled with the fishing and would probably want to continue with the status quo.

Short-sighted? Maybe but recs have been burned too many times to voluntarily give back anything.

 

[Roccus7]

You assume that the recs who show up would not support the for-hire lobby. Most recs are thrilled with the fishing and would probably want to continue with the status quo.

Short-sighted? Maybe but recs have been burned too many times to voluntarily give back anything.

Burn me now or burn me later. With 6 failed spawns in a row, the pipeline is in pitiful shape.

I know, some don't believe the YOY studies. Guess they have to ask themselves...

 

[george]

I'm afraid that train has left the station, and attendance at these meetings wouldn’t change a thing. The reality is that these meetings are deeply tied to the politics embedded in fisheries management. In Florida, the FWC routinely announces regulation changes—opening, closing, tightening, or loosening rules—at a moment’s notice, often without input from stakeholders.

Because their policies have consistently failed, the looming 2029 deadline will force even deeper cuts across the board for both recreational and commercial anglers. These decisions will be based on paper calculations using their flawed 10% mortality rate estimate, further punishing the fishing community with inaccurate data. Worse yet, these policies aren’t just failing fishermen—they’re also failing the fish they are supposed to protect.

 

[george]

So I ran a number of prompts into ai and found a few interesting trends:

Key Observations​

1. YOY Index Trends:
   • The YOY Index fluctuates significantly, with notable peaks in 2018 (18.4) and 2020 (35.4), and sharp declines in 2019 (3.4), 2021 (3.2), and especially 2023 (1.0).
   • A slight rebound is observed in 2024 (7.85).
2. Cohort Length Trends:
   • Older cohorts (e.g., 2018, 2019) show consistent growth over time, reaching maximum sizes of around 36 inches by 2023–2024.
   • Younger cohorts (e.g., 2023) are still small, as expected, with lengths of about 12.8 inches in their first year and 20 inches by the end of their second year.
3. Correlation Between YOY Index and Cohort Lengths:
   • The correlation analysis shows varying relationships between the YOY Index and cohort lengths:
     • 2018 Cohort: Weak negative correlation (−0.26−0.26), indicating no strong relationship.
     • 2019 Cohort: Weak negative correlation (−0.22−0.22).
     • 2020 Cohort: Moderate negative correlation (−0.68−0.68).
     • 2021 Cohort: Very weak negative correlation (−0.04−0.04).
     • 2023 Cohort: Perfect positive correlation (1.01.0), as this cohort aligns directly with the YOY Index for its first year.

Insights​

• The YOY Index does not consistently correspond to higher or lower sizes of older cohorts because the index reflects juvenile recruitment success, not the growth of fish already in the population.
• However, a high YOY Index year (e.g., 2020) suggests strong recruitment, which could lead to more fish entering the population and potentially contributing to future stock health.
• The perfect correlation for the 2023 cohort is expected since it directly links to its first-year recruitment.

Implications for Fisheries Management​

• The variability in YOY recruitment highlights the importance of protecting spawning stocks during poor recruitment years (e.g., 2019, 2023).
• Conservation measures should focus on maintaining a healthy age structure in the population to ensure resilience against fluctuating recruitment success.

This analysis underscores the need for long-term monitoring and management strategies to address both recruitment variability and stock sustainability.

 

[Roccus7]

Implications for Fisheries Management​

• The variability in YOY recruitment highlights the importance of protecting spawning stocks during poor recruitment years (e.g., 2019, 2023).
• Conservation measures should focus on maintaining a healthy age structure in the population to ensure resilience against fluctuating recruitment success.

Excuse the sarcasm but it's coming from a person who spent a career looking over data sets for trends. I guess it's good to see that AI currently points out the obvious. I would hope for something more novel in the future...

Right now if there's a Fisheries-specific AI system maybe it should be named Sherlock as in No Shit...

 

[george]

Now lets ask ai if we're seeing the fish we should be. IE: Where are all of those 2020 fish?

Analysis of YOY Index and Cohort Growth​

1. Strong YOY Years (e.g., 2020):
   • The 2020 cohort had an exceptionally high YOY Index (35.4), indicating strong recruitment.
   • By 2024, this cohort is estimated to have reached a size of about 34 inches, meaning these fish should now be contributing significantly to the biomass.
   • However, if there is no observed increase in biomass during these years, it could indicate issues such as high mortality rates, poor survival of juveniles to adulthood, or overfishing of this cohort as they entered harvestable size.
2. Weak YOY Years (e.g., 2019, 2021, 2023):
   • Poor recruitment years like 2019 (3.4), 2021 (3.2), and 2023 (near all-time low) would naturally result in fewer fish entering the population and contributing to biomass.
   • These weak year classes could exacerbate the problem by creating gaps in age structure.
3. Lag Between Recruitment and Biomass Contribution:
   • Strong recruitment years typically take several years to translate into noticeable increases in biomass as fish grow to harvestable or spawning size.
   • For example, the 2020 cohort should have started contributing significantly by 2023–2024, but if this is not observed, it raises concerns about survival rates or fishing pressure.

Potential Reasons for Lack of Biomass Increase​

1. High Mortality:
   • High juvenile or sub-adult mortality due to environmental factors, predation, or disease could reduce the number of fish reaching maturity.
2. Fishing Pressure:
   • Intense fishing pressure on strong year classes (e.g., the 2020 cohort) could prevent them from contributing to overall biomass.
3. Environmental Stressors:
   • Habitat degradation, changes in prey availability, or water quality issues could limit growth and survival.
4. Management Gaps:
   • If management measures do not adequately protect strong year classes as they grow into harvestable size, their contribution to biomass may be diminished.

Conclusion​

The lack of a noticeable increase in biomass during expected years suggests that factors beyond recruitment success—such as survival rates and fishing pressure—are impacting the population. This highlights the need for improved management strategies focused on protecting strong year classes and ensuring their survival to contribute meaningfully to the striped bass stock

 

[Roccus7]

Now lets ask ai if we're seeing the fish we should be. IE: Where are all of those 2020 fish?

Analysis of YOY Index and Cohort Growth​

1. Strong YOY Years (e.g., 2020):
   • The 2020 cohort had an exceptionally high YOY Index (35.4), indicating strong recruitment.
   • By 2024, this cohort is estimated to have reached a size of about 34 inches, meaning these fish should now be contributing significantly to the biomass.
   • However, if there is no observed increase in biomass during these years, it could indicate issues such as high mortality rates, poor survival of juveniles to adulthood, or overfishing of this cohort as they entered harvestable size.
2. Weak YOY Years (e.g., 2019, 2021, 2023):
   • Poor recruitment years like 2019 (3.4), 2021 (3.2), and 2023 (near all-time low) would naturally result in fewer fish entering the population and contributing to biomass.
   • These weak year classes could exacerbate the problem by creating gaps in age structure.
3. Lag Between Recruitment and Biomass Contribution:
   • Strong recruitment years typically take several years to translate into noticeable increases in biomass as fish grow to harvestable or spawning size.
   • For example, the 2020 cohort should have started contributing significantly by 2023–2024, but if this is not observed, it raises concerns about survival rates or fishing pressure.

Potential Reasons for Lack of Biomass Increase​

1. High Mortality:
   • High juvenile or sub-adult mortality due to environmental factors, predation, or disease could reduce the number of fish reaching maturity.
2. Fishing Pressure:
   • Intense fishing pressure on strong year classes (e.g., the 2020 cohort) could prevent them from contributing to overall biomass.
3. Environmental Stressors:
   • Habitat degradation, changes in prey availability, or water quality issues could limit growth and survival.
4. Management Gaps:
   • If management measures do not adequately protect strong year classes as they grow into harvestable size, their contribution to biomass may be diminished.

Conclusion​

The lack of a noticeable increase in biomass during expected years suggests that factors beyond recruitment success—such as survival rates and fishing pressure—are impacting the population. This highlights the need for improved management strategies focused on protecting strong year classes and ensuring their survival to contribute meaningfully to the striped bass stock

If you're asking about Hudson river fish, which is what I assume you are doing, did you tell Sherlock that only ≈20% of the coastal biomass is attributed to the Hudson River?? That would be important to factor in as a Potential Reason for Lack of Biomass Increase.

 

[george]

I had it look into the Hudson YOY

 

[Roccus7]

I had it look into the Hudson YOY

Right, but then the only data as to biomass is the entire East Coast's so if you look for the Hudson 2020 fish in that biomass, it will certainly be "lost" as it was only 20 or so % for the 2020 biomass.

None of the biomass data are broken down by spawning areas, at least to my knowledge...

 

[hawk375]

This is a joke, ASMFC has no idea what they are doing.According to ASMFC bluefish are rebuilding,,and striped bass are overfished?Anyone that has fished this the south shore this fall knows this is junk science.

 

[Snapprhead27]

I only listened to about the first hour of it. I still don't agree with the slot size as I think releasing the over slot has some mortality rates. Wish I had numbers to back it up, but you can see all fall from pictures to video how these fish are handled.

 

[OVERBORED]

What's sad is (video evidence all over this site) is the numbers of trophy fish that are being mishandled and likely released dead. It's an unfortunate consequence of this assinine slot limit.

Bluefish weakfish and the list continues of species with draconian limits and yet numbers are still low.

 

[Roccus7]

What's sad is (video evidence all over this site) is the numbers of trophy fish that are being mishandled and likely released dead. It's an unfortunate consequence of this assinine slot limit.

Slot or not, unless folks STOPPED fishing the second they caught a "keeper", there still would be Hero Photos and mishandling of fish of all sizes...

 

[OVERBORED]

Slot or not, unless folks STOPPED fishing the second they caught a "keeper", there still would be Hero Photos and mishandling of fish of all sizes...

They do it in Alaska

 

[Roccus7]

They do it in Alaska

Yes, but the NY Bight isn't Alaska, is it?? Not to mention that there's a larger, and very active fisheries enforcement effort in Alaska than NY/NJ.

 

[george]

We need to take a serious step back as the ASMFC considers a measure that, for the first time, no one supports—not the catch-and-release fly fisherman, the charter captain, or the pin hooker. We’ve worked within a broken management plan that continues to fail all of us, including the striped bass.

Over the past three decades, we’ve seen every management tool imaginable: minimum sizes, maximum sizes, open and closed seasons, various slot limits, and now the controversial three-inch keeper window. Has any of it worked? No. So why should anyone believe that a so-called "wave closure," a term you’ll hear repeatedly, will make a difference?

Looking ahead, the future seems clear. If these closures proceed, the recreational fishing industry will be devastated, reduced to a full-time catch-and-release fishery. Meanwhile, the commercial sector will be awarded the harvest they assume we’re killing.

What other options remain? The only tool in the box is shutting us all out. By law, this must be fixed by 2029, and time is running out

 

[OVERBORED]

Yes, but the NY Bight isn't Alaska, is it?? Not to mention that there's a larger, and very active fisheries enforcement effort in Alaska than NY/NJ.

Correct. I'm just pointing out that some captains don't believe in C&R.

What you do in Maine, catching a few fish per day. Occasionally taking one home is sporting, reasonable.

What these guys are doing now C&R 30-40+ Bass up to 50lbs Net and plop fish on the deck, take a few pictures, throw the thing back is nonsensical. Fish preparing for winter, all schooled up committing suicide. Just my opinion.

 

[george]

For the record there already is a law on the books for targeting out of season fish, with many convictions.

n New York State, fishing regulations are designed to protect fish populations and ensure sustainable angling opportunities. One key aspect of these regulations is the prohibition against fishing for certain species during their closed seasons. This means that anglers are not allowed to target these species, even if they intend to release them immediately.

Definition of Fishing

According to the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC), "fishing" encompasses the act of taking, killing, netting, capturing, or withdrawing fish by any means. This includes every attempt to take fish and assisting another person in such efforts. Therefore, attempting to catch a fish during its closed season is considered a violation, regardless of whether the fish is kept or released.

Department of Environmental Conservation


Closed Season Restrictions

The DEC specifies that during a species' closed season, anglers may not fish for that species, even on a catch-and-release basis. If a fish is caught unintentionally during its closed season, it must be unhooked and released immediately without being handled for any other purpose.

Department of Environmental Conservation


Enforcement and Penalties

Environmental Conservation Officers (ECOs) actively enforce these regulations. Anglers found targeting species during their closed seasons can be issued citations, which may result in fines or other penalties. For example, in March 2023, ECOs issued 134 tickets during operations along the Hudson River, addressing violations such as unlawfully targeting out-of-season fish.

Angler Responsibilities

Anglers are responsible for familiarizing themselves with the open seasons, size limits, and daily catch limits for the species they intend to pursue. This information is available in the DEC's Freshwater Fishing Regulations Guide and on the DEC website. By adhering to these regulations, anglers contribute to the conservation of fish populations and the overall health of aquatic ecosystems.

 

[Roccus7]

What these guys are doing now C&R 30-40+ Bass up to 50lbs Net and plop fish on the deck, take a few pictures, throw the thing back is nonsensical. Fish preparing for winter, all schooled up committing suicide. Just my opinion.

No arguments, but will a Six Pack STOP fishing the second everyone has their trophy fish on board? I think we both know the answer to that...

And yes there's probably more than the predicted 10% mortality in these cases, but every successful release is one more, fecund fish that's going drop some eggs in the spring. You'd rather they stack 'em on the deck like cordwood like the "good old days"??