A NY Striped Bass Meeting concerned fishermen should attend or tune into December 10 @ 17:00

[Roccus7]

For the record there already is a law on the books for targeting out of season fish, with many convictions.

n New York State, fishing regulations are designed to protect fish populations and ensure sustainable angling opportunities. One key aspect of these regulations is the prohibition against fishing for certain species during their closed seasons. This means that anglers are not allowed to target these species, even if they intend to release them immediately.

Definition of Fishing

According to the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC), "fishing" encompasses the act of taking, killing, netting, capturing, or withdrawing fish by any means. This includes every attempt to take fish and assisting another person in such efforts. Therefore, attempting to catch a fish during its closed season is considered a violation, regardless of whether the fish is kept or released.

Department of Environmental Conservation


Closed Season Restrictions

The DEC specifies that during a species' closed season, anglers may not fish for that species, even on a catch-and-release basis. If a fish is caught unintentionally during its closed season, it must be unhooked and released immediately without being handled for any other purpose.

Department of Environmental Conservation


Enforcement and Penalties

Environmental Conservation Officers (ECOs) actively enforce these regulations. Anglers found targeting species during their closed seasons can be issued citations, which may result in fines or other penalties. For example, in March 2023, ECOs issued 134 tickets during operations along the Hudson River, addressing violations such as unlawfully targeting out-of-season fish.

Angler Responsibilities

Anglers are responsible for familiarizing themselves with the open seasons, size limits, and daily catch limits for the species they intend to pursue. This information is available in the DEC's Freshwater Fishing Regulations Guide and on the DEC website. By adhering to these regulations, anglers contribute to the conservation of fish populations and the overall health of aquatic ecosystems.

George, how many of those "134 convictions" occurred when the perps didn't have possession of any stripers? I think we both know that answer and it's probably a very low number, damn close, if not equal to Zero. Usually the "targeting" summons accompanies an "illegal possession" summons...

Remember that fishing for bass in the EEZ between Block and Montauk is also illegal, but Enforcement reports all successful convictions involved people who had bass on board, which is the only definitive proof that bass were being targeted.

 

[OVERBORED]

Spring time is spawn time however I'm not convinced that overfishing is causing these bad YOY stats. Too many environmental factors to ignore

 

[Roccus7]

Spring time is spawn time however I'm not convinced that overfishing is causing these bad YOY stats. Too many environmental factors to ignore

NOBODY will claim that overfishing is the causative agent of the bad YOY stats, it's a whole, unrelated observation. Additionally, NOBODY can tell exactly what is causing the poor YOY stats, there are many hypotheses including water quality, or lack thereof of the water of the spawning sites, as well as the nursery areas for the newly-hatched bass, poor timing of the plankton that the young bass feed on, e.g. their favorite food source hatches and thrives before the bass hatch, and other weather, water salinity or climatic issues. Bottom line, all of these are out of ASMFC's control so not being discussed as possible improvements.

We all know that even a small SSB (Spawning Stock Biomass) given the proper conditions can have hugely successful spawn, and vice versa, a huge SSB can have a miserable YOY result because of improper spawning conditions. However, it can't hurt to maximize the SSB, and that's something ASMFC CAN impact. Now that the fishery has been deemed to be overfished, the Board must legally take action to recover the SSB to minimum target. With the latest "Decent" spawn population of 2018 fish coming into the 28-31" slot, it's been deemed critical to protect as much of the SSB as possible, and there we are.

What infuriated me the most of this exercise was a "cursory" examination of lowering the slot below where the 2018 will be in 2025 could have a significant impact on the number of this taken. The makes sense in that there are no great year classes after 2018. The Technical Committee said a 26-28" slot, the only slot they looked at wouldn't make a big difference, but you know what??? These "Expert Statisticians" and I can't emphasize how it infuriates me to type that, used the F/L data from 2018 as being "representative" of what things will look like in 2018!!!

Hmmm, let me see, the bulk of the fish in 2018 between 17-22" would be the excellent 2015 class!!! HTF these people could say that was a valid analysis is beyond any comprehension for me. I've fired statisticians for misrepresentations far less egregious than that, but there you are, ASMFC's Best Available Science...

Enough venting. Bottom line, IMO, we have to do something in 2025 and the best of the ugly options is to get the14% reduction, which BTW, is a 50/50 coin toss as to its effectiveness, with some harvest closures, when and where I really don't give a crap. I can have less blackened striper, striper ceviche, and striper sashimi in 2025. I just want to make sure my grandkids can catch some...

 

[george]

@Roccus7 Nearly every fisheries law is easy to break, but making it a law ensures the VAST MAJORITY of anglers will comply, including charter and open boat operators. They already follow the rules in place.

On another note... After reading through this thread, it’s clear that the only way to meet their arbitrary target by 2029 is to shut down the entire fishery. Is that where this is headed? Does anyone really think the fishery is in such dire straits? This isn’t the late '80s or early '90s when the only big bass you saw were on the back of Billy the Greek’s back.

Back then, they did what actually worked: no commercial fishery and a one-fish-per-person limit at 36 inches. Maybe it’s time to return to that instead of micro-managing the fishery with ever-changing quotas and bag limits driven by unreliable data. This reactive approach isn’t working—the numbers and reality aren’t aligning.

Striped bass is the top-targeted fish on the East Coast, supporting over 10 million recreational trips annually. Tens of thousands of jobs and businesses depend on a healthy fishery. It’s time for the ASMFC to acknowledge the fishery's significance and act accordingly.

 

[Roccus7]

@Roccus7 Nearly every fisheries law is easy to break, but making it a law ensures the VAST MAJORITY of anglers will comply, including charter and open boat operators. They already follow the rules in place.

On another note... After reading through this thread, it’s clear that the only way to meet their arbitrary target by 2029 is to shut down the entire fishery. Is that where this is headed? Does anyone really think the fishery is in such dire straits? This isn’t the late '80s or early '90s when the only big bass you saw were on the back of Billy the Greek’s back.

Back then, they did what actually worked: no commercial fishery and a one-fish-per-person limit at 36 inches. Maybe it’s time to return to that instead of micro-managing the fishery with ever-changing quotas and bag limits driven by unreliable data. This reactive approach isn’t working—the numbers and reality aren’t aligning.

Striped bass is the top-targeted fish on the East Coast, supporting over 10 million recreational trips annually. Tens of thousands of jobs and businesses depend on a healthy fishery. It’s time for the ASMFC to acknowledge the fishery's significance and act accordingly.

Yes, every fishery law is easier to break, some far easier than others, so buy in from anglers is a critical necessity for success. Telling people they can't fish for stripers even with C&R is futile, it's just too easy to work around, and as I mentioned before, something that historically impossible to prosecute unless they also have fish in the boat so over worked ECOs wouldn't even bother, something that we all know...

What I hope will happen: Both Recs and Commercial hit with some reduction that would get that 14% reduction at a minimum.

• Quota reductions for Comms, but it should be reductions to their actual catch which is always less than their quota
• Reduction in retention for Recs using No Retention closures of some time frame.

What I think will happen:

• ASMFC will do their normal kicking the can by the road by saying that more studies are needed.

Therefore nothing will get done in time for 2025 and we'll go through this bureaucratic circle jerk for another year.

BTW, the old Moratorium Memory is Lore in many ways. 1st, not every state had any Moratorium at all, IIRC MA was one that never had a Moratorium, and some states only had them for 1 year like NY while others went longer. WTH is a moratorium rule on a fish that migrates up along the entire NE coast if not all states follow the same rules? Additionally not every state enacted a 36" minimum, with states like Maine evoking conservation equivalences, along with Jersey and MD doing some CE mumbo jumbo in their typical fish grab.

If a 36" minimum were enacted it would certainly reduce my retention, out of 4-5 thousand striped bass caught in Maine, I've only caught 1 fish > 36". More importantly, it would also open up the 2015 population and you have to ask, do we really want people to target the bulk of our most fecund fish in a time where the YOY is experiencing major challenges?

That's if for now, I'm waiting to see what happens Monday morning, but not holding my breath about anything ends up happening for 2025...

 

[OVERBORED]

@Roccus7 Nearly every fisheries law is easy to break, but making it a law ensures the VAST MAJORITY of anglers will comply, including charter and open boat operators. They already follow the rules in place.

On another note... After reading through this thread, it’s clear that the only way to meet their arbitrary target by 2029 is to shut down the entire fishery. Is that where this is headed? Does anyone really think the fishery is in such dire straits? This isn’t the late '80s or early '90s when the only big bass you saw were on the back of Billy the Greek’s back.

Back then, they did what actually worked: no commercial fishery and a one-fish-per-person limit at 36 inches. Maybe it’s time to return to that instead of micro-managing the fishery with ever-changing quotas and bag limits driven by unreliable data. This reactive approach isn’t working—the numbers and reality aren’t aligning.

Striped bass is the top-targeted fish on the East Coast, supporting over 10 million recreational trips annually. Tens of thousands of jobs and businesses depend on a healthy fishery. It’s time for the ASMFC to acknowledge the fishery's significance and act accordingly.

Here we go again!

Why should comms. be shut out of a public resource ESPECIALLY since Recs account for the majority of Bass mortality?

IMHO you can start the conversation by shutting down the spring fishery to ALL

 

[Roccus7]

Why should comms. be shut out of a public resource ESPECIALLY since Recs account for the majority of Bass mortality?

Never said they should be shut out like many are screaming. If they lose proportionally, it's like 1% of their current quota, a rounding error...

 

[george]

Here we go again!

Why should comms. be shut out of a public resource ESPECIALLY since Recs account for the majority of Bass mortality?

IMHO you can start the conversation by shutting down the spring fishery to ALL

I’m simply saying it worked before.

Sorry @overboard, but that’s the worst option of all. It’s already hard enough getting through these winters, and now you want to push both anglers and the businesses they support back another month? That’s not something I can support.


Unfortunately, it’s an “us or them” situation. This issue only involves the commercial sector because the ASMFC is forcing the conversation in that direction. Do I think the 70 tags each commercial operation gets will make or break the fishery? Not really. Do they need those tags to survive? No. But shutting out the million anglers in this state from the fishery? That would be devastating to the entire industry.

 

[OVERBORED]

Well.......is it about saving businesses or the striped bass?

You started a thread about how good blackfishing was for you this year. Was that improvement a result of past spring closures?

Abundant cod in the Gulf of Maine. Was that a result of closures?

Don't ask the question if you're not prepared for the answer.

 

[captmike28]

@Roccus7 Nearly every fisheries law is easy to break, but making it a law ensures the VAST MAJORITY of anglers will comply, including charter and open boat operators. They already follow the rules in place.

On another note... After reading through this thread, it’s clear that the only way to meet their arbitrary target by 2029 is to shut down the entire fishery. Is that where this is headed? Does anyone really think the fishery is in such dire straits? This isn’t the late '80s or early '90s when the only big bass you saw were on the back of Billy the Greek’s back.

Back then, they did what actually worked: no commercial fishery and a one-fish-per-person limit at 36 inches. Maybe it’s time to return to that instead of micro-managing the fishery with ever-changing quotas and bag limits driven by unreliable data. This reactive approach isn’t working—the numbers and reality aren’t aligning.

Striped bass is the top-targeted fish on the East Coast, supporting over 10 million recreational trips annually. Tens of thousands of jobs and businesses depend on a healthy fishery. It’s time for the ASMFC to acknowledge the fishery's significance and act accordingly.

This is a very difficult subject for me to comment on because I feel quite conflicted. As a lifelong fisherman who has pursued Striped Bass, in good times and bad, for over 65 years there is no doubt I want to do my part in conserving this extremely important resource. Yet, I also recognize that a large portion of my charter business is dependent upon the ability to allow a paying customer to enjoy both catching and retaining at least one fish for the table. Lord knows myself and my wife also love to eat Striped Bass so there is even more guilt involved in my own mind.

There is also no doubt that no matter what regulations are in place some will abide by them and some will not. However, it is my personal opinion that those who really care about this fishery, whether they are recreational, or part of the for-hire industry still will play by the rules.

I have said many times before that I am not a fisheries biologist, nor do I claim to have even a fraction of the knowledge some other contributors to this board have. But I would like to think I have common sense and decent powers of observation. So, here is my layman's idea of how to try and serve both the recreational and for hire sectors. Commercial landings are a whole different problem and almost always politically driven.

Again, I might be naive, but I think any slot type limit is definitely working against our supposed efforts to reduce the numbers of fish either harvested or killed through the mortality that results from a robust C & R fishery. Perhaps it has been suggested before, but I am starting to feel we need to keep the bag limit at just 1 fish, set a minimum size of 26" or 28# but no upper size limit for retention. Then no C&R once you have boxed the one fish limit. Overall, you will probably lower the mortality rate due to mishandled fish while striving to catch fish to fit within the ridiculously narrow 3" window we now have.

We have all witnessed what I would consider to be a disgraceful abuse of the resource right now with the huge fall runs of exceptionally large fish being caught and released with little apparent care for the fish's health. All many of these folks seem concerned about is how large a score they can rack up and how many "ego related" photos they can take. That is not sportsmanship or protecting the resource, IMHO.

Although it is not as blatant, I myself have witnessed and at times had to participate in an extended search and C& R effort in recent years to help my fares catch their limit of 28"-31" slot fish. That is way too many potentially damaged fish to have to cull through just to meet a flawed regulation.

I also think that most of my fellow charter captains and I, as well as most recreational anglers, realize that Striped Bass, with the current regulations and size of biomass, is only a part time fishery at best on any given day. We are always targeting other species on any trip where Striped Bass fishing is part of the day. So why not let us catch our one fish per person quickly, preserve the life of those not within a silly narrow window, and move on to the secondary targeted fish of the day?

Maybe this is just too simplistic and there are other factors I am not aware of. However, I am always happy to be educated, so please feel free to shoot holes in my theory. What worries me the most is this is so logical and obvious that it will never be considered as practical by the horribly misguided members of the regulatory committees.

 

[OVERBORED]

Right on point Mike!

 

[hawk375]

That is exactly right the only problem is many other areas have nothing else to fish for but bass.This is because the asmfc has been a failure since it began. How much affect will having millions of large bass have on rebuilding other stocks sorry to say the state of NC has had to resort to stocking because of this problem.

 

[Roccus7]

Perhaps it has been suggested before, but I am starting to feel we need to keep the bag limit at just 1 fish, set a minimum size of 26" or 28# but no upper size limit for retention. Then no C&R once you have boxed the one fish limit.

A key caveat for this, which isn't a bad idea at all, is robust fisheries for other species, something that is definitely regionally dependent.

As you relate, you can't make striped bass a full-day event for your charters, but you can target other fish that will make your customers quite happy, including myself and crew back in June. My question is what would YOU DO IF you didn't have fluke, weakfish, bluefish, scup, BSB, nor tautog available after the boat limit was met?

Believe it or not, NH and ME inshore fishermen are faced with this ugly reality.

Look at the bright side, IF NY wanted to "lead" in conservation measures, they could add the "One in the Box and off for some other fish" rule. Fair minded folks like yourself might embrace that, but I'm sure it would go over like a fart in church with >90% of the LI Fishing Population.

 

[holty]

So I agree with boxing one fish over 26-28" with no slot. That is a no-brainer to me. This will save many fish. The one keeper and you put your rod down? Hmmm.....not sure this will work especially for a charter group. Say you have a four to six-man charter bucktailing the Gut. One happy angler picks his keeper on the first drift. It takes two more hours for the boat to limit while that first fish happy angler sits and watches? On a headboat bass fishing, the scenario would be worse. I fish solo quite a bit. If I pick a bass early I head right to the fluke grounds so this idea would work for me. I don't see this method working on the For-Hire group. How about mandatory barbless hooks other than circles? Eliminate all treble hooks? Shorten the season? Two-week closure in mid-July? Looks like some type of change is headed our way. My two cents.
regards Holty

 

[george]

Well.......is it about saving businesses or the striped bass?

Please understand, this isn’t about saving striped bass, it’s about hitting a specific number within a timeline that regulators set themselves. The reality is, we don’t even know what the real problem is. Are we missing certain year classes? It seems that way. But does anyone here truly believe this fishery is on the verge of collapse? I don’t.

Think about it for a moment. In this thread alone, we’ve come up with several suggestions on what we need to do and how to fix things. But how will any of these ideas work if we can’t even pinpoint the root cause? And how are we supposed to fix everything in just four years? It looks like we’re done, or are we?

@Roccus7 might know more about this, but I believe the board could amend its Fishery Management Plan for striped bass, setting a new rebuilding deadline based on updated scientific assessments and stock projections. There’s a lot of political attention on this fishery, and extending the plan might be the only practical, and political solution.

You started a thread about how good blackfishing was for you this year. Was that improvement a result of past spring closures?

I guess it helped. I still believe the 25 fish limit put on comms has been a huge help. I was surprised this year with the tog we saw in the sound, but I have no clue where they came from. It was pointed out on that thread that the south shore fishery has yet to rebound.

Abundant cod in the Gulf of Maine. Was that a result of closure?

Are they abundant?

When I see fall runs like we've had here in recent years, I'm seeing more fish, fat healthy looking bass than I've ever seen before. That's in over 35 years of reporting on bass. No one will ever convince me that an angler jigging up a bass, one in the schools of thousands, is hurting this fishery. There is no gut hooking and they're being released in the best conditions for survival. Fat, healthy and in cold inshore waters. I have caught hundreds, maybe thousands of bass like that over my lifetime and I have never seen one go belly up. Now, you can't say the same about the light tackle angler, - I do that too, that enjoys targeting fish in the summer. Those fish are the most stressed. Are we supposed to give that up too?

I do want to make one point however on anglers and photos. We all know what it cost to be a part of our great sport. We also know the learning stages and what it takes to become a great angler and put a decent fish on the boat. That's in spite of every restriction, from seasons, tackle and size and area limits. Now the angler catches the fish of a lifetime and we don't want them to take pictures of it? Don't assume he's catching as many as he wants. Think of it as his or hers first big bass. It's just as important to have anglers have a snapshot of that great feeling you get when landing a big fish. It's those moments that keep us going back.

 

[george]

Look at the bright side, IF NY wanted to "lead" in conservation measures, they could add the "One in the Box and off for some other fish" rule. Fair minded folks like yourself might embrace that, but I'm sure it would go over like a fart in church with >90% of the LI Fishing Population.

Let’s think about that for a moment… While it might sound like a good idea on the surface, do we really know if it will work within the management plan? It seems like a no-brainer, but my fair minded thinking reminds me that what’s good for the bass isn’t always good for the plan. Especially when the plan is based on flawed data. Will this change actually get the bean counters to the numbers they’re chasing? We’ve seen similar rules here in New York before, until they were adjusted to allow more catch and release fishing. How dare the 90% of us who fish recreationally expect the right to release a fish?

I’m strongly opposed to anything that limits catch and release. It’s a fundamental practice we should be encouraging, not restricting. It keeps people connected to the sport, invested in the fishery, and passionate about conservation. Imagine gearing up for a night of surfcasting in Montauk, only to be forced to keep the first fish you catch. What kind of precedent are managers setting when they penalize anglers for releasing a healthy bass back into the water?

And let’s be honest , the 9% mortality rate is all based on some of the most blatantly flawed data I’ve ever seen. We need better science, better management, and policies that actually support the health of the fishery, not just the numbers on a spreadsheet.

 

[OVERBORED]

One thing I find ironic, there was never talk of a slot limit for bluefish or weakfish even though there were very poor YOY numbers. So these fishery's not matter as much?

Why the "over management" for the Striped Bass?

 

[george]

One thing I find ironic, there was never talk of a slot limit for bluefish or weakfish even though there were very poor YOY numbers. So these fishery's not matter as much?

Why the "over management" for the Striped Bass?

Funny you should mention that. As the advisor on the asmfc board I can tell you that there is little to no hope of a serious rebound in that fishery. But the bluefish thing is nuts when you think about it, but that's for another thread.

 

[captmike28]

So I agree with boxing one fish over 26-28" with no slot. That is a no-brainer to me. This will save many fish. The one keeper and you put your rod down? Hmmm.....not sure this will work especially for a charter group. Say you have a four to six-man charter bucktailing the Gut. One happy angler picks his keeper on the first drift. It takes two more hours for the boat to limit while that first fish happy angler sits and watches? On a headboat bass fishing, the scenario would be worse. I fish solo quite a bit. If I pick a bass early I head right to the fluke grounds so this idea would work for me. I don't see this method working on the For-Hire group. How about mandatory barbless hooks other than circles? Eliminate all treble hooks? Shorten the season? Two-week closure in mid-July? Looks like some type of change is headed our way. My two cents.
regards Holty

First of all, thanks to everyone who replied to my comments. I know it is healthy to always pay close attention to each other's opinions and perspective.

Obviously, this is a very complex problem, and no simple or single solution will work for everyone. Especially when it is apparent there is so much we really don't understand about the true nature of what goes on under the water and out of sight.

There is no doubt that, as Roccus notes, many other areas are not blessed with the variety of different species to target through no fault of their own. Perhaps that is where more localized regulations need to be implemented.

I am also sensitive to Holty's observation about what might happen should one angler on a given trip catch their keeper quickly and the others still have to put in more time. Actually, I was not advocating for that angler to "sit it out" until the rest of the crew found success. Regardless of the regulations or species this happens every day regardless of whether fishing recreationally or on a charter/party boat. Some anglers are more skilled than others and some are just a bit luckier at times. In most instances I believe folks do recognize this and are happy to receive the gift of a keeper landed by a fellow angler, committing themselves to try and learn more and do better themselves the next time out.

Regarding photos, as Geroge mentioned, perhaps I need to clarify my feelings a bit more. I do wholeheartedly encourage folks to take a quick photo of a memorable catch and, if the fish is caught past reaching the boat limit or they choose to be more sportsmanlike, to then release that fish. Naturally that is one important way for us all to protect the resource and also have some "bragging rights' for years to come. What offends me is when it is obvious that a boat is well over their limit and are just playing C&R because the fish are so aggressive and easily fall prey while in a feeding frenzy. This is where it appears to me some anglers become very careless and are often mishandling a large number of throwbacks.

I don't have a lot of answers other than to restate that it is up to each one of us to do our best to protect both the fish and the environment that provides all of us with one of the most rewarding experiences in our lives.

 

[hawk375]

How true thats why we have to wake up and realize the asmfc has lost their way and become only worried about striped bass and nothing else