Fluke. Seabass, Porgy Regs 2024

I think a April start is crazy.
IMHO, the April 1 option was solely put forth to try and appease those determined to hold onto a 4 fish bag limit. What's the real trade-off...an even more difficult to reach minimum size! Totally absurd!

Like it or not, it's pretty obvious we will end up with 3 fish at 19", The only question remaining is what will be the open season.
 
IMHO, the April 1 option was solely put forth to try and appease those determined to hold onto a 4 fish bag limit. What's the real trade-off...an even more difficult to reach minimum size! Totally absurd!

Like it or not, it's pretty obvious we will end up with 3 fish at 19", The only question remaining is what will be the open season.
Agreed, I've gone a couple times on opening day in May and its been nasty weather. To open one month earlier to not do much, just to have 1 extra fish later in the season? I'll pass.
 
Without getting emotional about it, why with regard to fluke is the proposal (argument) always size or season and not bag limit? We have lowered bag limits on weakfish, striped bass and bluefish. If the goal is reduction of fish mortality, why not limiting the fluke bag down to two or maybe three? It would certainly lower the amount of death due to mishandling as well.
I have always wondered about fish mortality. Right now one the biggest issue for strict regs and reduced biomass may be the discard rate for both recreational, charter/party boat and commercial fishermen.

Asking charter or Party boat Captains I know the average of what they assume is that between five percent and fifteen percent die. Most fisheries use a number around ten percent. Again, here education of fisherman who care would go a long way. People who dig for their hooks on fluke when the eye of the book is inside the mouth, or hold fish by the gills, or even worse inside the gills, can see mortality close to twenty percent. Depending on what you believe for a mortality rate, it is not in anyone’s best interest to have fisherman, on any boat catch a large number of shorts to finally catch a keeper. I will not address commercial dropping dead fish from their nets as I have no facts.

Getting back to the options, I think what you vote for depends on where you fish. For example, I fish Port Jefferson and with a friends on the south shore. I get bigger fish in the early spring that seems to coincide with the squid migration. I do not see much of a fall migration in Port Jefferson. With my friends on the south shore, they seem to have a body of fish available for a longer period of time.
 
So frustrating that every season, you anticipate the opener only to realize that the commercial pinhookers have already mopped up all the bay spots!

Earlier season with smaller size. What's wrong with that picture?

Everyone is concerned about the live blackfish market, what about the live fluke market???
 
I plan to fill out my survey and be at the DEC meeting on 1/31. Hopefully it will result in a solution both the fish and fisherman can live with.

May I ask a question regarding the DEC meeting on Jan 31st? Can you elaborate more on it? Where is it? Time? Open to all?

I have gone to a few of these. Commercials, Party and Charter Captains and bait shop owners are represented. I assume it is due to their financial interest.

Recreational, not so much.
 
From Roccus above:
DEC will hold a public meeting to review potential 2024-2025 recreational saltwater fishing regulation options for summer flounder (fluke) and scup. The hybrid meeting will be held on Wednesday, January 31, 2024, at 6 p.m. at DEC Division of Marine Resources, 123 Kings Park Blvd. Kings Park, NY. Visit DEC’s website for additional information.

Go in person if you can. In NJ, last year's slot was approved to appease those present, despite protests from those online!
 
From Roccus above:
DEC will hold a public meeting to review potential 2024-2025 recreational saltwater fishing regulation options for summer flounder (fluke) and scup. The hybrid meeting will be held on Wednesday, January 31, 2024, at 6 p.m. at DEC Division of Marine Resources, 123 Kings Park Blvd. Kings Park, NY. Visit DEC’s website for additional information.

Go in person if you can. In NJ, last year's slot was approved to appease those present, despite protests from those online!
Thanks. I missed it.

Anyone going?
 
No comparison my friend. Also, keep in mind that winter flounder are flourishing. Just not in our polluted bays. They've moved offshore now and commercials are catching their full quotas.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm a fish first guy. Always have been and always will be. But Im also an advocate for recreational fishing.

The best thing for was scup would be no one fishing them at all. I realize that the govt tries to get it right, but sadly they're stuck at their desk looking at numbers that in most cases are correct about 50% of the time.

I'm doing this for over 35 years now and I can say that the micro managing of this, and other fisheries, with constant regulation changes, is obviously not the answer. It has never worked and never will.
I can't agree more with George on this. Further, the catch restriction alone on the already declined stock whether it is striper or flounder will not work. It will require a paradigm shift; starting from the better governing system of state, regional and federal level per task.

I think the hatchery programs supported by states or federal government for the spawning and stocking like we do with freshwater species ( trout, hybrid striper etc.) must expand to troubled saltwater species (starting with cod, striper, flounder that are relatively easy to hatch or even to farm artificially). It was adapted in East Asia decades ago and restored many troubled species successfully. I heard North and South Carolina have started that recently with stripers in a couple of major spawning rivers. "Put back and take" is the shift we need going forward.
 
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I can't agree more with George on this. Further, the catch restriction alone on the already declined stock whether it is striper or flounder will not work. It will require a paradigm shift; starting from the better governing system of state, regional and federal level per task.

I think the hatchery programs supported by states or federal government for the spawning and stocking like we do with freshwater species ( trout, hybrid striper etc.) must expand to troubled saltwater species (starting with cod, striper, flounder that are relatively easy to hatch or even to farm artificially). It was adapted in East Asia decades ago and restored many troubled species successfully. I heard North and South Carolina have started that recently with stripers in a couple of major spawning rivers. "Put back and take" is the shift we need going forward.
I'm not familiar what they're doing in east Asia, but I'd that works out could be the answer. My issue has always been why raise fish, let them go, and have them caught commercially? Why not just raise some of those fish ams not take them from that wild?

I'm not suggestinb you're wrong about NC and SC, but I'm thinking I probably would have found out about it. I do know back in the early days of the plan there were farmed fish released that eventfully accounted for 5% of the biomass. Again were dealing with numbers that have a 50/50 chance of being correct.

On the other hand, they did that with salmon on the west Coast resulting in a strain of salmon that couldn't reproduce. We have an excellent piece on that here.

You are correct that what they're doing now isn't working, it never will. Is there any common sense in suggesting that this year's slot is targeting the same fish we did last year? That's exactly what they're trying to tell us. I guess they don't grow ever year🤔.
 
I'm not familiar what they're doing in east Asia, but I'd that works out could be the answer. My issue has always been why raise fish, let them go, and have them caught commercially? Why not just raise some of those fish ams not take them from that wild?

I'm not suggestinb you're wrong about NC and SC, but I'm thinking I probably would have found out about it. I do know back in the early days of the plan there were farmed fish released that eventfully accounted for 5% of the biomass. Again were dealing with numbers that have a 50/50 chance of being correct.

On the other hand, they did that with salmon on the west Coast resulting in a strain of salmon that couldn't reproduce. We have an excellent piece on that here.

You are correct that what they're doing now isn't working, it never will. Is there any common sense in suggesting that this year's slot is targeting the same fish we did last year? That's exactly what they're trying to tell us. I guess they don't grow ever year🤔.
Yeah, it is a little complicated topic. I did it to suggest as an idea for the paradigm shift that can possibly be a start of solving the problem. Though I am not an expert to share rich scientific details on the issue, let me explain a little more on where I am coming from that may respond better to your comments.

The following is one of the articles that I mentioned on the news of striper hatching and stockings in NC and SC; NEW Striped Bass Stocking Effort Aims to Restore Population

I think it just started last year in NC to be a well known news. The main point I want to explain is that the state is not breeding and releasing the striper stocks from elsewhere, but from its own breeders caught on that particular spawning ground, so it is as natural as possible, other than the artificial fertilization part and farming the stock from a couple of days to a few months for the better survival rate of these millions of baby (fry and fingerlings) stripers. I bet there will be trials and errors of running these types of programs (like the west coast salmons you mentioned) for highly migratory species such as stripers.

Nonetheless, it is a good start. The key is the artificial fertilization, because without it, we have to wait only until the good spawning year to happen naturally, like 2015 for the north east stripers. But this happens far between and we never know when the next one is happening. It will get only harder with dwindling striper stocks ( so the number of breeders). That is the reason why we have to do this, even though the majority of these fish will be caught commercially before reaching the spawning age. Not all will be caught and at least some will reach back to the ground to spawn naturally or artificially again. And that will all be surplus. If it is repeated in a year after a year, the entire stock will be rebuilt and much more before you know it.

This was how some of the troubled species were restored in Korea. One of them is the Pacific cod fishery. There is an island in the southern peninsula, called Geojedo. It is Block Island to New England area, the best known cod breeding ground in Korea. Some even said the 90% of Korean cod fish stock bred there. So, like the old days in the ledge of Block island, all the cod fish boats in Korea congregated in front of the island during the 3 months of every spawning season and eventually wiped out the fishery, close to an extinct level. One large cod was hovering $1-200 at that time, as it was a very sought after and an already expensive fish. Finally, the government and the island fishermen made a coalition and started to breed and release cod fingerlings more and more every year. And the fishery restored only after a handful years and further rebounded in such a way ever seen before. It even created a recreational cod fishery. Charter boat fishing for cod has been booming in Korea not only near the island, but in the entire eastern seaboard (over 300 miles).

There are limitless options to run and expand these stocking programs. For example, when (if) the artificial fertilization is not a problem anymore and it can hatch at a higher rate, the state/agency can give a away fingerlings or sell at lower price to aquaculture farmers to grow the fish that can further decrease the commercial fishing pressure. Or you can even delegate the hatching and releasing duties to private aqua-farmers for the exchange of farming permits or the rental of public waterways etc.

Aside from these natural stockings, I believe encouraging and pushing for more aquaculture; farming of highly demanded (thus pressured) fish species, is where the answer only lies. Otherwise, you have to catch/supply the commercial demands from the wild. And it is simply not sustainable to regulate the need with the growth of population and seafood interests. Cod, tuna, striper, seabass and flounder... It is eventually going to happen to every specie. unless we get it else where. That's only in farming the fish . And US is in the bottom of fish farming science and business in the world. We are just too used to catch everything from wild with powerful boats and technologies.

Let me give you a final example before ending this. All live flounders in the fish tank you see in big Asian markets in across US are farmed fish from Asia. Those are put to sleep with acupuncture needles and transported by air. When the needles are taken out, the fish swim immediately in the tank. It is pretty amazing. Anyway, since the farming of flounders became so successful - one of the first and easiest fish to farm years ago in Korea ( sorry to keep on giving Korean examples, but that's one other country that I am very familiar with), there are very few commercial boats that specifically target wild flounders unless it is by catch. Wild flounders are still more expensive but not that much to offset the cost of catching them. Because of it, with the flounder stock flourishing, catching doormats have become much easier and abundant recreationally. It is crazy to see how rapidly it has transformed and increased the recreational fishing industry in Korea. It was unthinkable just 10-15 years ago. The reason I am putting the time and writing this in length, hoping to see the glory days again when I can take my children and grand children to Montauk to experience incredible cod fishing or just to Sheepshead Bay or Rockaway for amazing flounder fishing I experienced back in the day.
 
Yeah, it is a little complicated topic. I did it to suggest as an idea for the paradigm shift that can possibly be a start of solving the problem. Though I am not an expert to share rich scientific details on the issue, let me explain a little more on where I am coming from that may respond better to your comments.

The following is one of the articles that I mentioned on the news of striper hatching and stockings in NC and SC; NEW Striped Bass Stocking Effort Aims to Restore Population

I think it just started last year in NC to be a well known news. The main point I want to explain is that the state is not breeding and releasing the striper stocks from elsewhere, but from its own breeders caught on that particular spawning ground, so it is as natural as possible, other than the artificial fertilization part and farming the stock from a couple of days to a few months for the better survival rate of these millions of baby (fry and fingerlings) stripers. I bet there will be trials and errors of running these types of programs (like the west coast salmons you mentioned) for highly migratory species such as stripers.

Nonetheless, it is a good start. The key is the artificial fertilization, because without it, we have to wait only until the good spawning year to happen naturally, like 2015 for the north east stripers. But this happens far between and we never know when the next one is happening. It will get only harder with dwindling striper stocks ( so the number of breeders). That is the reason why we have to do this, even though the majority of these fish will be caught commercially before reaching the spawning age. Not all will be caught and at least some will reach back to the ground to spawn naturally or artificially again. And that will all be surplus. If it is repeated in a year after a year, the entire stock will be rebuilt and much more before you know it.

This was how some of the troubled species were restored in Korea. One of them is the Pacific cod fishery. There is an island in the southern peninsula, called Geojedo. It is Block Island to New England area, the best known cod breeding ground in Korea. Some even said the 90% of Korean cod fish stock bred there. So, like the old days in the ledge of Block island, all the cod fish boats in Korea congregated in front of the island during the 3 months of every spawning season and eventually wiped out the fishery, close to an extinct level. One large cod was hovering $1-200 at that time, as it was a very sought after and an already expensive fish. Finally, the government and the island fishermen made a coalition and started to breed and release cod fingerlings more and more every year. And the fishery restored only after a handful years and further rebounded in such a way ever seen before. It even created a recreational cod fishery. Charter boat fishing for cod has been booming in Korea not only near the island, but in the entire eastern seaboard (over 300 miles).

There are limitless options to run and expand these stocking programs. For example, when (if) the artificial fertilization is not a problem anymore and it can hatch at a higher rate, the state/agency can give a away fingerlings or sell at lower price to aquaculture farmers to grow the fish that can further decrease the commercial fishing pressure. Or you can even delegate the hatching and releasing duties to private aqua-farmers for the exchange of farming permits or the rental of public waterways etc.

Aside from these natural stockings, I believe encouraging and pushing for more aquaculture; farming of highly demanded (thus pressured) fish species, is where the answer only lies. Otherwise, you have to catch/supply the commercial demands from the wild. And it is simply not sustainable to regulate the need with the growth of population and seafood interests. Cod, tuna, striper, seabass and flounder... It is eventually going to happen to every specie. unless we get it else where. That's only in farming the fish . And US is in the bottom of fish farming science and business in the world. We are just too used to catch everything from wild with powerful boats and technologies.

Let me give you a final example before ending this. All live flounders in the fish tank you see in big Asian markets in across US are farmed fish from Asia. Those are put to sleep with acupuncture needles and transported by air. When the needles are taken out, the fish swim immediately in the tank. It is pretty amazing. Anyway, since the farming of flounders became so successful - one of the first and easiest fish to farm years ago in Korea ( sorry to keep on giving Korean examples, but that's one other country that I am very familiar with), there are very few commercial boats that specifically target wild flounders unless it is by catch. Wild flounders are still more expensive but not that much to offset the cost of catching them. Because of it, with the flounder stock flourishing, catching doormats have become much easier and abundant recreationally. It is crazy to see how rapidly it has transformed and increased the recreational fishing industry in Korea. It was unthinkable just 10-15 years ago. The reason I am putting the time and writing this in length, hoping to see the glory days again when I can take my children and grand children to Montauk to experience incredible cod fishing or just to Sheepshead Bay or Rockaway for amazing flounder fishing I experienced back in the day.
Here's a link to the NC striper stocking program: https://www.ncwildlife.org/Connect-With-Us/new-striped-bass-stocking-effort-aims-to-restore-population
 
With fluke what i have noticed with party boats is there are very few full day fluke trips. I know miss Montauk is a full day boat ocean eagle when fluke opens they target fluke then when porgies start showing up they only go out on Tuesday and Thursday For fluke. Those are the only two that I know. I am sure there are more. What I don’t like about half day trips Is your mostly in the bay. Once its later in the year the fish move into the ocean and the bay is fished out. Only time I go on half day is when its very hot outside and I don’t want to spend a full day in the heat or thunderstorms are forecasted. If anyone knows of any full day fluke boats other than the 2 that I mentioned let me know.
 
The summer fluke crowd are mostly "tourists" looking to spend a few hours on the water. Less $$ than a full day.

Of the boats you mentioned, only the OE is a truly hard core fluke boat often fishing rougher bottom for nicer fish.
 
striped bass were stocked for years surprised george and roccus didnt know this, read special report no. 53 by asmfc very intersting this isnt mentioned by asmfc with problem fish are having spawning now
 
striped bass were stocked for years surprised george and roccus didnt know this, read special report no. 53 by asmfc very intersting this isnt mentioned by asmfc with problem fish are having spawning now
@hawk375 - You are the true purveyor of Fake news. I spoke with the folks that do the stocking and I was told that they just started this program in December of 2023. As I had mentioned earlier farm raise striped bass were entered into the fishery in the 80's and eventually ended up contributing 5% to the biomass.
 
Glad you cleared that up George. I kept trying to insert appropriate punctuation and changing grammar and still wasn't sure what was meant. We were surprised on a recent cruise as to how many fish farms were in the Bay of Fundy area. Reminded us of Alaska when we went there ten years ago. SWMBO and I have been eating a lot of salmon this past year and for the life of me I really can not tell the difference between "wild" and "farmed." Maybe one and the same, lol.
 
Yeah, it is a little complicated topic. I did it to suggest as an idea for the paradigm shift that can possibly be a start of solving the problem. Though I am not an expert to share rich scientific details on the issue, let me explain a little more on where I am coming from that may respond better to your comments.

The following is one of the articles that I mentioned on the news of striper hatching and stockings in NC and SC; NEW Striped Bass Stocking Effort Aims to Restore Population

I think it just started last year in NC to be a well known news. The main point I want to explain is that the state is not breeding and releasing the striper stocks from elsewhere, but from its own breeders caught on that particular spawning ground, so it is as natural as possible, other than the artificial fertilization part and farming the stock from a couple of days to a few months for the better survival rate of these millions of baby (fry and fingerlings) stripers. I bet there will be trials and errors of running these types of programs (like the west coast salmons you mentioned) for highly migratory species such as stripers.

Nonetheless, it is a good start. The key is the artificial fertilization, because without it, we have to wait only until the good spawning year to happen naturally, like 2015 for the north east stripers. But this happens far between and we never know when the next one is happening. It will get only harder with dwindling striper stocks ( so the number of breeders). That is the reason why we have to do this, even though the majority of these fish will be caught commercially before reaching the spawning age. Not all will be caught and at least some will reach back to the ground to spawn naturally or artificially again. And that will all be surplus. If it is repeated in a year after a year, the entire stock will be rebuilt and much more before you know it.

This was how some of the troubled species were restored in Korea. One of them is the Pacific cod fishery. There is an island in the southern peninsula, called Geojedo. It is Block Island to New England area, the best known cod breeding ground in Korea. Some even said the 90% of Korean cod fish stock bred there. So, like the old days in the ledge of Block island, all the cod fish boats in Korea congregated in front of the island during the 3 months of every spawning season and eventually wiped out the fishery, close to an extinct level. One large cod was hovering $1-200 at that time, as it was a very sought after and an already expensive fish. Finally, the government and the island fishermen made a coalition and started to breed and release cod fingerlings more and more every year. And the fishery restored only after a handful years and further rebounded in such a way ever seen before. It even created a recreational cod fishery. Charter boat fishing for cod has been booming in Korea not only near the island, but in the entire eastern seaboard (over 300 miles).

There are limitless options to run and expand these stocking programs. For example, when (if) the artificial fertilization is not a problem anymore and it can hatch at a higher rate, the state/agency can give a away fingerlings or sell at lower price to aquaculture farmers to grow the fish that can further decrease the commercial fishing pressure. Or you can even delegate the hatching and releasing duties to private aqua-farmers for the exchange of farming permits or the rental of public waterways etc.

Aside from these natural stockings, I believe encouraging and pushing for more aquaculture; farming of highly demanded (thus pressured) fish species, is where the answer only lies. Otherwise, you have to catch/supply the commercial demands from the wild. And it is simply not sustainable to regulate the need with the growth of population and seafood interests. Cod, tuna, striper, seabass and flounder... It is eventually going to happen to every specie. unless we get it else where. That's only in farming the fish . And US is in the bottom of fish farming science and business in the world. We are just too used to catch everything from wild with powerful boats and technologies.

Let me give you a final example before ending this. All live flounders in the fish tank you see in big Asian markets in across US are farmed fish from Asia. Those are put to sleep with acupuncture needles and transported by air. When the needles are taken out, the fish swim immediately in the tank. It is pretty amazing. Anyway, since the farming of flounders became so successful - one of the first and easiest fish to farm years ago in Korea ( sorry to keep on giving Korean examples, but that's one other country that I am very familiar with), there are very few commercial boats that specifically target wild flounders unless it is by catch. Wild flounders are still more expensive but not that much to offset the cost of catching them. Because of it, with the flounder stock flourishing, catching doormats have become much easier and abundant recreationally. It is crazy to see how rapidly it has transformed and increased the recreational fishing industry in Korea. It was unthinkable just 10-15 years ago. The reason I am putting the time and writing this in length, hoping to see the glory days again when I can take my children and grand children to Montauk to experience incredible cod fishing or just to Sheepshead Bay or Rockaway for amazing flounder fishing I experienced back in the day.
Now this is a great post! It's something that's always been in the back of my mind. The fact that it created a recreational fishery is amazing.

Do you know if they allow commercial fishing on the cod? It's always been my position that raising fish to let into the wild, and then having destructive nets fisheries kill many as a bycatch is counterproductive.
 
read report special report no 53 here it is it appears that stocking to boost production in systems with poor reproduction in combination with management measures is a viable option . their report not mine not fake news thats what you serve. is that the problem now maybe the 5 percent was when we had record spawns, now the spawn is problem.report was made by asmfc read it maybe people have to spend money to fish.
 
read report special report no 53 here it is it appears that stocking to boost production in systems with poor reproduction in combination with management measures is a viable option . their report not mine not fake news thats what you serve. is that the problem now maybe the 5 percent was when we had record spawns, now the spawn is problem.report was made by asmfc read it maybe people have to spend money to fish.
what is the date of report number 53?
 
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