Rhetorical question

I will start with commenting on this years Fluke season since that was the start of the thread. However I will add some history as well. I am in my mid sixties and fished the west end of the sound through my youth.

This years Fluke season was a poor one for me fishing the sound in the Port Jeff area. One or two keepers very early in the season then all shorts. What clued me in from the start was the Port Jeff Fleet never fished for fluke when the season started (they porgy fished). Seems the party boat fleet had some intel that is was not worth the effort. I tried from Smithtown Bay to Shoreham. East or west it got no better or worse, same result all shorts.

The reasons could be many from a poor spawning a few years back to too much fishing pressure. Yes there were many more people on the water this year due to cabin fever from Covid. They did not seem to have and different results than the rest of us

I do know some of the local draggers had a challenge trying to catch the 125 or 75lb. daily quota on fluke.
At one point I wanted everyone to chip in and get them to clean out the thousands of sea robins that were attacking out baits.

The part about things be cyclical has some truth to it. I also remember jigging weakfish at Diamond Point off Oyster bay. Catching large amounts of mack's in the western sound. The Sheepshead bay fleet would come up the East River and into the sound to catch macks-usually around Memorial Day weekend. That how good it was!

There would be a few small cod caught at 32A late in the season by the black fisherman. Yes, I said small cod!

There were also kingfish in Hempstead Harbor and small tom cod would mix in with the early season flounder fishing. Yes many flounder were caught in the sound decades ago.

We just have to see what 2021 brings as far as regulations and the fluke population.

One more thing, as stated, no one caught Fluke in the Sound until about mid 1985.

Sorry for the long post.
 
Early to mid 70s fluke were very rare in the sound , A run of boston mackeral in the sound and in the harbors every year mid april to mid may Insane flounder fishing in the harbors and in june in the sound anybody remember the flounder run in the sound from Roanoke shoals every fish a solid 2.5 lbs and up to a real weighed 4LBS,Alittle earlier in the mid 60s whiting by the barrel off of wading river my father in law has those pictures somewhere,And after the mackeral jigging we would fish shallow rite up on the beach for Blackfish on open bottom with clams for bait .Most of the striped bass were a June and late November thing trolling black umbrella rigs and the size limit was 16inches man they were good eating and if you caught 10 , 7 to 10 inch porgies you had a hell of a day.Late 70s early 80s we would diamond jig tide runner weakfish till your arms were dead The yearly Pirates Cove weakfish tournament .But fluking did not start getting into gear till the early 80s.
 
I wonder how much of this is cyclical, and not pollution and overfishing. Was thrilled to take home more than a dozen weaks off the yak this summer, along with some kingfish I never saw before in the backbay.
 
I learned something to the above posts. I did not know no one caught Fluke in the Sound until about mid 1985. Back then, I was fishing in the Moriches. Speaking of cyclical, I do remember catching winter flounder fishing the Moriches. Renting a boat at Silly Lilly and going with my college buddies (great times). I also remember catching Mackerel in the sound.

Now you guys have me worried the fluke may never return, like winter flounder never returned to Moriches in the number that used to be there.

*DEEP SIGN* :cry: Let hope things improve and they return.
 
Flounder Joe added more on how good fishing was and how it changed. There was a large run of Boston Mackerel as stated. I remember jigging them off Port Jeff every spring. I moved to the Port Jeff area in 1986

When the fluke population started to rebound after many dismal years. That is when we started seeing them in the sound. The mid 80's was about the start. The 14 inch Fluke limit at the time really helped the fish rebound. BTW there was a lot of opposition to the 14 minimum size for fluke back then. It did work and helped the population rebound. Then the fluke stated to show in the sound.

I fished the east end from time to time. We would forget fluke fishing and go to the ruins and catch flounder that were bigger than the fluke. The flounder would run to 4 lbs in June while the fluke were small

The flounder fishing in Great South Bay was great in the 60's and 70's. The Captree fleet would fish the Hecksher flats in March and April. Twenty to thirty fish a person were common place. Blowfish would show in early April by the Fire Island lighthouse-bay side.
 
and on my first boat in the late 70s, early 80s in the western part of the Great South Bay, I would get a second round of flounder fishing in before hauling out on Veterans Day.
 
Pequa 1 is correct. There was a run of flounder in the fall. The fish would return to the bay and bed down for the winter. I do remember catching them in the fall as a kid. The fish would be full of roe and waiting to spawn over the winter. I never understood why the fleet would target fish that were in the bay to spawn. That seemed to be the start of the decline of the flounder population. Less and less fish in the fall meant less fish in the Spring.
 
Guilty as charged, although I would only get half a dozen and don't remember them being roe laden. Where we really went wrong was in catching dozens and dozens in the spring back bay, and then absolutely killing it with larger ones on the way out the inlet near the Big M. As said before in a different location, they were bigger than the incoming fluke.
Nowadays I don't even start to fish from boat or yak until fluke season opens, having no luck from the beaches in April, and by Halloween I am winterizing, having gotten only schoolies while bellying, and turning to deer hunting and surfcasting for bass. the last I saw a flounder caught in my area was when my '99 Sea Pro was new then and not after 911.
 
The demise of winter flounder fishing in our area has to be one of the most disappointing aspects to our local fisheries for anyone who was able to enjoy the "bonanza years". Many of us, especially in my age bracket (I'm now 69) were initially introduced to saltwater fishing by going for these plentiful and delicious eating fish.

Although I grew up in Queens, my Dad and I would often rent rowboats in Moriches (silly Lilly as previously mentioned) or Hampton Bays (Oscars Lighthouse) and catch tons of Flounder. Does anyone remember the location just east of the Ponquogue Bridge known as "the Basket Grounds"? During the 60's and into the 70's it was not uncommon to easily fill a bushel basket with quality flounder. In those days Dad and I would also occasionally jump on one of the Captree party boats and the Heckscher flats were the place to be in the GSB. However, I do know there were also many other great spots to bag a load of flounder in the west end bays

By the mid 70's I bought my first boat and began working the waters of the Peconic Bay system, Eastern LI Sound, and Gardiners Island consistently. As good as the action seemed to be back west, the quality and quantity of winter flounder taken in this area seemed unreal at times. Inside the Peconics there were tons of fish and more than enough honest to goodness 2.5-3.5# fish to make anyone smile. In the Sound Petty's Bight, just west of the Orient lighthouse was equally as good, if not better, until the dragger fleets which were pulling nets literally a stone's throw from the shore in the mid 80's virtually wiped out that population.

Also during the early 70's there was a lesser known population of winter flounder that would actually spend the entire summer in the cooler waters just a few hundred yards west of the Orient Point Lighthouse, right next to the Cable Crossing sign. I stumbled upon these fish one very foggy early August morning, before my radar days. I had "felt" my way out to the point closely following the shoreline but good judgement told me not to venture past the lighthouse in the soup, so I dropped anchor right there.. I had some old frozen bloodworms left over from a spring trip, figured I would catch a few Porgies but was amazed when winter flounder started to come up with some regularity. I continued to work that spot several times over the next few years spring, summer, and fall, and always managed to put together a decent catch there with very little competition.

Now if you want to talk about the ultimate in quality winter Flounder, IMHO, either Gardiners Island or the waters on the SW side of Block Island were the places to be in the 70's thorough mid 80's. For those who remember, the Montauk bots used to run special Cod/Winter "Snowshoe Flounder" Trips fishing mainly by the Hooter Buoy. Hi/Low rigs with clam baits on a smaller flounder hook on the bottom and Cod hook a couple of feet higher. Although I never caught any larger than 4.5#, I did see several scale weighed 5-5.5# fish on some of those trips! On a related note, the largest winter flounder I ever caught was just shy of 6#, caught on a diamond jig while Codfishing off Nova Scotia. That's a story for another day.

Because of my own boat size at the time and the distance of the runs in those days most of my quality flounder east end trips were centered around Gardiners Island. Everyone knew of the fishing in Tobacoclot Bay towards the southeast side of the island but there was also outstanding fishing to the north by Bostwick point. You had to be a little more mindful of the tides up north but both spots would produce 3-4# fish with regularity. Many of the Tobaccolot fish had that beautiful almost reddish coloration due to the amount of red kelp in the area.

Sadly this fishery took a real nosedive somewhere in the early to mid 90's. First the Peconics seemed to dry up, then the Sound, and even Gardiners Island. The last place I can recall still being able to scrape together a reasonable catch of maybe 6-10 fish for a morning's effort was Lake Montauk. That was always the "bail out" spot to fish if the seas were too rough to go Cod fishing. Personally I have not tried fishing there in at least 15 years as it has now become economically unfeasible to run all the way form the north fork to Montauk and spend a ton of money on fuel, bait, and chum for just 2 fish pp. I hear rumblings form time to time that there are still some Flounder to be caught in the Lake in the spring so I guess if you have access it's worth a try.

I love Winter Flounder so much that I refused to throw in the towel even as I saw the decline happen. I gave the fishery at least a decade to see if it would rebound. In the early part of this decade I actually did devote 3 full days on all my best drops in different seasons with tons of chum, fresh mussels, clams, worms, the works in an attempt to see if things had changed, Not a single flounder was produced for all that effort! So it looks like if you still want to put some fresh winter Flounder on your plate then Quincy, MA seems to be holding on for whatever reason. Having said that, some of my west end friends tell me there are still some being caught in Raritan Bay and some other bays on the west end. However, the east end seems to be almost totally devoid of flounder.

We can speculate on the reasons. Some say changes in water temperature, or the increase in seal populations, or runoff pollution. Although pollution is often a culprit I am not totally convinced this is the only issue. I refuse to believe that the waters of Quincy Harbor, right next to Boston are cleaner than those of eastern LI. Like most things in life, it is probably a combination of factors and, perhaps, some I am not even aware of. All I can say is I deeply miss our Winter Flounder and they will always hold a soft spot in my fishing heart!!!


winterflounder80s.webp
 
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Capt. Mike summed up the flounder fishery of the past very well. I am a few years younger-63 but remember those days well. We never thought the fishery would end and maybe we should have practiced conservation. I miss it too. St. Patrick's Day was considered the official opening of the flounder season.

There was a flounder fishery way in the back of Port Jefferson years ago. I haven't tried in years. Capt Mike summed it up well. Too much effort, bait fuel ect to maybe keep two fish.
 
We would catch double headers and accidentally catch them in crab traps.
A recreational fisherman can't hurt the population. ;)




https://www.rockawave.com/articles/rockaway-outdoors-96/



Smitty’s was a boat rental, where one coming from throughout the boroughs could — for a small price — rent and commandeer a skiff for the day. Then they could cast off and catch fish and enjoy a day on the water. It was a slice of “Americana” now gone. The boats were prepped and serviced by Jimmie, whom at the time was no more than a young boy.
 
captmike28 said:
The demise of winter flounder fishing in our area has to be one of the most disappointing aspects to our local fisheries for anyone who was able to enjoy the "bonanza years". Many of us, especially in my age bracket (I'm now 69) were initially introduced to saltwater fishing by going for these plentiful and delicious eating fish.

Although I grew up in Queens, my Dad and I would often rent rowboats in Moriches (silly Lilly as previously mentioned) or Hampton Bays (Oscars Lighthouse) and catch tons of Flounder. Does anyone remember the location just east of the Ponquogue Bridge known as "the Basket Grounds"? During the 60's and into the 70's it was not uncommon to easily fill a bushel basket with quality flounder. In those days Dad and I would also occasionally jump on one of the Captree party boats and the Heckscher flats were the place to be in the GSB. However, I do know there were also many other great spots to bag a load of flounder in the west end bays

By the mid 70's I bought my first boat and began working the waters of the Peconic Bay system, Eastern LI Sound, and Gardiners Island consistently. As good as the action seemed to be back west, the quality and quantity of winter flounder taken in this area seemed unreal at times. Inside the Peconics there were tons of fish and more than enough honest to goodness 2.5-3.5# fish to make anyone smile. In the Sound Petty's Bight, just west of the Orient lighthouse was equally as good, if not better, until the dragger fleets which were pulling nets literally a stone's throw from the shore in the mid 80's virtually wiped out that population.

Also during the early 70's there was a lesser known population of winter flounder that would actually spend the entire summer in the cooler waters just a few hundred yards west of the Orient Point Lighthouse, right next to the Cable Crossing sign. I stumbled upon these fish one very foggy early August morning, before my radar days. I had "felt" my way out to the point closely following the shoreline but good judgement told me not to venture past the lighthouse in the soup, so I dropped anchor right there.. I had some old frozen bloodworms left over from a spring trip, figured I would catch a few Porgies but was amazed when winter flounder started to come up with some regularity. I continued to work that spot several times over the next few years spring, summer, and fall, and always managed to put together a decent catch there with very little competition.

Now if you want to talk about the ultimate in quality winter Flounder, IMHO, either Gardiners Island or the waters on the SW side of Block Island were the places to be in the 70's thorough mid 80's. For those who remember, the Montauk bots used to run special Cod/Winter "Snowshoe Flounder" Trips fishing mainly by the Hooter Buoy. Hi/Low rigs with clam baits on a smaller flounder hook on the bottom and Cod hook a couple of feet higher. Although I never caught any larger than 4.5#, I did see several scale weighed 5-5.5# fish on some of those trips! On a related note, the largest winter flounder I ever caught was just shy of 6#, caught on a diamond jig while Codfishing off Nova Scotia. That's a story for another day.

Because of my own boat size at the time and the distance of the runs in those days most of my quality flounder east end trips were centered around Gardiners Island. Everyone knew of the fishing in Tobacoclot Bay towards the southeast side of the island but there was also outstanding fishing to the north by Bostwick point. You had to be a little more mindful of the tides up north but both spots would produce 3-4# fish with regularity. Many of the Tobaccolot fish had that beautiful almost reddish coloration due to the amount of red kelp in the area.

Sadly this fishery took a real nosedive somewhere in the early to mid 90's. First the Peconics seemed to dry up, then the Sound, and even Gardiners Island. The last place I can recall still being able to scrape together a reasonable catch of maybe 6-10 fish for a morning's effort was Lake Montauk. That was always the "bail out" spot to fish if the seas were too rough to go Cod fishing. Personally I have not tried fishing there in at least 15 years as it has now become economically unfeasible to run all the way form the north fork to Montauk and spend a ton of money on fuel, bait, and chum for just 2 fish pp. I hear rumblings form time to time that there are still some Flounder to be caught in the Lake in the spring so I guess if you have access it's worth a try.

I love Winter Flounder so much that I refused to throw in the towel even as I saw the decline happen. I gave the fishery at least a decade to see if it would rebound. In the early part of this decade I actually did devote 3 full days on all my best drops in different seasons with tons of chum, fresh mussels, clams, worms, the works in an attempt to see if things had changed, Not a single flounder was produced for all that effort! So it looks like if you still want to put some fresh winter Flounder on your plate then Quincy, MA seems to be holding on for whatever reason. Having said that, some of my west end friends tell me there are still some being caught in Raritan Bay and some other bays on the west end. However, the east end seems to be almost totally devoid of flounder.

We can speculate on the reasons. Some say changes in water temperature, or the increase in seal populations, or runoff pollution. Although pollution is often a culprit I am not totally convinced this is the only issue. I refuse to believe that the waters of Quincy Harbor, right next to Boston are cleaner than those of eastern LI. Like most things in life, it is probably a combination of factors and, perhaps, some I am not even aware of. All I can say is I deeply miss our Winter Flounder and they will always hold a soft spot in my fishing heart!!!


View attachment 28090
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Speaking of Quincy, I remember running up there with a guy I use to work with on the New Haven RR and rent a skiff from Hurely's.

We used hand lines and sat with one in ea. hand, pulling in fish one right after the other, in retrospect no one thought the flounder would die off, the same as the blue fish population, I'm guilty of over fishing both, no fish went to waste, but we me I was caught up in the moment and didn't think about the consequences, that's why these days I only keep what I need and the rest go back, I won't even keep a bass anymore, not that I catch a lot these days lol.

Back in the mid 80's we use to catch a lot of flounder off of sunken Island Southport ct., my friend caught a 24.8lb blue fish at dead low tide, I think he still has the record, not sure, but anyways, each year after that saw a big decline that we didn't bother to fish for them anymore.

I haven't target them, or bothered to fish for them since the early 90's.
I don't think certain fisheries are ever going to recover the way were, to no one sector of or group of people can be singled out, we all had a hand in it. but it's what we do from now on that will decide their fate.
I have no answers, but as I stated, I will limit my kill, not kill my limit.
Tight Lines,
Jay
 
Stevepanther is correct in his observation that there still appear to be some winter flounder being caught in the ocean. I have heard similar reports from reliable sources over the last few years, although none from as far east as Montauk. Why they no longer inhabit our bays remains a big mystery.

Aside from my need to fill limits for my charter customers, I very much agree with Jay's closing comment... "I will limit my kill, not kill my limit." Well said and some wise words to follow my friends.
 
captmike28 said:
Stevepanther is correct in his observation that there still appear to be some winter flounder being caught in the ocean. I have heard similar reports from reliable sources over the last few years, although none from as far east as Montauk. Why they no longer inhabit our bays remains a big mystery.

Aside from my need to fill limits for my charter customers, I very much agree with Jay's closing comment... "I will limit my kill, not kill my limit." Well said and some wise words to follow my friends.
Click to expand...

I have a friend. He told me he knows a dragger and there are flounder, but they are in 100+ feet of water in the ocean. Not knowing why they do not enter the bays is a big mystery as mentioned by a number of fisherman. The big concern is the same thing will happen to Summer flounder (fluke). I really don't want another mystery as to why they no longer enter the Long Island Sound.
 
For Fluke, it seems we get the spillover from the south shore and east end. Last year the fish hit Montauk and Orient and stayed there. We had a fishery in the sound last year but nothing great.

This year it seemed to be a poor fishery everywhere. The east end had it's moments but nothing special. Lots of small fish in GSB which is typical
 
Poorrichard, I agree that the Fluke fishery in 2019 was good at Montauk, based upon the 7 trips I made out there from the north fork. Boat limits on all but one trip and several fish from 7-9.5#. Peconic Bay was tapering off but if you worked hard at it you could still put together a decent catch. Gardiners Island was starting to slip but it had a few good days in June and early July.

This season's Fluke fishing was certainly the toughest I have experienced in many years. The early Peconic Bay run was poor with a handful of big fish but very tough to get close to a limit catch. Gardiners I. really collapsed with very lean activity there at best. I tried 3 trips in the area and only came up with a single keeper on each trip, a few shorts on others and that was it. Judging by the almost complete lack of boats I saw there on my way to Montauk, I must conclude there was nothing viable happening there all summer.

Also, as you mentioned, even Montauk was off this past season compared to the absolutely great Fluke fishing we have enjoyed there in recent years. The more steady bite did not seem to take off until the third week of July, while the year before I was already catching well on Independence day weekend. For 2020 I made 8 trips to Montauk and I primarily fish either the point or all the well known (and a few lesser known) spots on the south side. In my opinion, 4 of those trips were pretty solid with limit catches of fish to 8.2#, 2 trips OK falling short of the limit with one decent fish in the bunch each time, and 2 trips where the Sea Bass had to bail us out. Compare those results to 2016-2018 when I saw many more limit catches and at least four 10#+ fish hit the deck.

There is a change happening and I too sure hope this does not follow the same trend as the winter flounder.
 
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