Shimano Grappler series rods..

[Chinacat]

Mitch - I just reread this last page of this thread and see that I gave you bad info. The standard Trevala TVS66MH that I own and you asked about, will NOT handle an 8oz sinker. In fact, I doubt it would be comfortable with 6 ounces of lead. Its a 4oz rod, all day long. It forte, being a spinner, is casting lures to bass and bluefish, and being used with a 4000-sized reel for tog jigging. Excellent for those purposes.

Anyway, its my bad, I thought you were asking about the Trevala "S" TVSC63MH - which I also own. That one WILL handle an 8oz sinker - in casting or spinning config. Completely different rod, from another rod series. Shimano seems to like to put out rods with very similar model numbers - and they all start to sound the same - especially when you reach "Senior Citizen" status, as I did this month. Damn, I can't believe it myself!

Thanks Pete-
Not sure how I missed this follow-up info from you but that is very helpful!
I'm leaning towards a trevala "S" in an MH IF I could find one, primarily for seabass on the reef in 80' up to 8oz if needed
That being said, should I consider the "F" or grappler as well?

 

[Leprechaun]

Grappler Type J > discontinued Trevala S > Trevala PX > Trevala F > "old" gray-colored Trevala.

 

[Snapprhead27]

Went out and got my Grappler today. GRPJS60ML, can't wait to give it a try!!

 

[Leprechaun]

Now we're talkin! You will LOVE it!

 

[captmike28]

Went out and got my Grappler today. GRPJS60ML, can't wait to give it a try!!

SH, make sure you bring that sweet stick with you on your trip mid May. As you read, Lep did quite a number on the shallow water Tog with me last fall using that rod and it should also be a dynamite Fluke bucktailing outfit.

Wow, now the pressure is really on me to put you on a nice doormat to break her in!!!

 

[Leprechaun]

Fluke and Blackfish?

Meh.

SH27, find a 6' Brown Shark to tangle with.

This is my "preferred rod" for such fishing. He already has a "shark ready" Evict 2000, so he's good to go!

 

[Snapprhead27]

SH, make sure you bring that sweet stick with you on your trip mid May. As you read, Lep did quite a number on the shallow water Tog with me last fall using that rod and it should also be a dynamite Fluke bucktailing outfit.

Wow, now the pressure is really on me to put you on a nice doormat to break her in!!!

Already in the plans! Haha...

I went to Trophy tackle to pick it up. I made sure to go for the rod racks and did not wonder elsewhere. May have ended up with more stuff lol

 

[Leprechaun]

Wow. The Tackle Monkey must have had the day off.

I’m never that “lucky.”

 

[captmike28]

Fluke and Blackfish?

Meh.

Find SH27 a 6' Brown Shark to tangle with.

This is my "preferred rod" for such fishing. He already has a "shark ready" Evict 2000, so he's good to go!

Sure, we have plenty of sharks in the Peconics. Unfortunately they are not brown, just the gray ones that go "bow wow"!

 

[CaptFP]

Great read and lots of info, thanks. I know you guys have been discussing the Grappler spinner but are the conventional rods acid wrapped or am I confusing the Shimanos with the Tsunami slow pitch?

 

[Leprechaun]

Yes, they are not spiral wrapped. Significant difference between the Tsunami SP rods and the Grapplers. Hyundai to Lexus sort of thing.

 

[CaptFP]

Yes, they are not spiral wrapped. Significant difference between the Tsunami SP rods and the Grapplers. Hyundai to Lexus sort of thing.

Lep- Thanks I saw both last fall but couldn’t remember which was spiraled. Guess old age is catching up. Still,Tsunami give you a lot for the money.

 

[Leprechaun]

IMO, Tsunami SP rods are a best buy, in their category.

 

[Jmorcos]

I would like to ask what are your thoughts of the differences between the game type j and grappler type j rods? Thank you

 

[Leprechaun]

My thoughts? I've handled multiple versions of both series, but have only fished the Grapplers, as have quite a few of the guys that fish on my boat. What do I think the principal difference is? About $100 or so.

I had the bug to pick up a Game Type J a few seasons ago, but forgot all about it once John at Trophy Tackle showed me the then brandy-new Grappler J's. Love at first sight, not to mention at first use, that season.

I actually do not know enough about the Game Type J's to properly evaluate them vs the Grappler J's. But I do doubt they're much more techy than the Grapplers, which also feature the Spiral-X and High Power-X technologies, same as the Game Type J's.

Based on what I've actually seen of the Game Type J's, they appear to be a touch more refined in finish, and a hair lighter in weight, size for size. I believe they carry the up-market Fuji SIC guides, instead of the Fuji Alconites on the Grapplers. Big deal, the Alconites are far more resistant to cracking from impacts vs. the SIC guides - and so I do not see this as a negative for the Grapplers.

If anyone owns an example from both series, I too would like to hear about the differences. But for my money, the Grapplers are as good as they need to be for our inshore fishing.

As an aside, have you looked at the Dark Matter "Skinner" rods? They really are darn nice, for a good bit less than the Grapplers. I've seen several of those in action this past season as well, and they are pretty darn good as well. Very nice "head-shake cushioning" mod-fast actions on all of them.

One last aside - one of my crew owns the Grappler J ML and still seems to prefer the $99 original (blue) Diawa Harrier M for fluke spinning. Go figure . . .

I have to assume you've read my "Tackle Reviews" thread on this subject? Its pinned up top of this board. Good info in that thread.

 

[Jmorcos]

My thoughts? I've handled multiple versions of both series, but have only fished the Grapplers, as have quite a few of the guys that fish on my boat. What do I think the principal difference is? About $100 or so.

I had the bug to pick up a Game Type J a few seasons ago, but forgot all about it once John at Trophy Tackle showed me the then brandy-new Grappler J's. Love at first sight, not to mention at first use, that season.

I actually do not know enough about the Game Type J's to properly evaluate them vs the Grappler J's, but I do doubt they're much more techy than the Grapplers, which also feature the Spiral-X and High Power-X technologies, same as the Game Type J's.

Based on what I've actually seen of the Game Type J's, they appear to be a touch more refined in finish, and a hair lighter in weight, size for size. I believe they carry the up-market Fuji SIC guides, instead of the Fuji Alconites on the Grapplers. Big deal, the Alconites are far more resistant to cracking from impacts vs. the SIC guides - and so I do not see this as a negative for the Grapplers.

If anyone owns an example from both series, I too would like to hear about the differences. But for my money, the Grapplers are as good as they need to be for our inshore fishing.

As an aside, have you looked at the Dark Matter "Skinner" rods? They really are darn nice, for a good bit less than the Grapplers. I've seen a bunch of those in action this past season or so, and they seem pretty darn good as well. Very nice "head-shake cushioning" mod-fast actions on all of them.

One last aside - one of my crew owns the Grappler J ML and still seems to prefer the $99 original (blue) Diawa Harrier M for fluke spinning. Go figure . . .

I have to assume you've read my "Tackle Reviews" thread on this subject? Its pinned up top of this board. Good info in that thread.

Thank you that’s very helpful! From what else I see is the game type j has spiral core vs spiral x on the grappler and it seems to be a little stronger and more flexible. However I do not know if that translates to a marginally better rod or a crazy difference. I suspect not though.

 

[OVERBORED]

As an aside, have you looked at the Dark Matter "Skinner" rods? They really are darn nice, for a good bit less than the Grapplers. I've seen several of those in action this past season as well, and they are pretty darn good as well. Very nice "head-shake cushioning" mod-fast actions on all of them.

Aren't Skinner rods made in China?...........just sayin.............

 

[Leprechaun]

I certainly wish it were otherwise, but so is 90+% of what's on your local B&T's shelves. Not to mention all cell phones, most PCs and/or their innards and probably a good part of the cars we drive. I understand even a Chevy or two has an engine completely built in China. Who could have imagined that 30 or 40 years ago? Geez.

Sux, I know, but the choice to sub out the Western (and Japanese) world's manufacturing to those criminals in the CCP was made years ago. And not by me or you.

No American rod company makes anything like a Grappler or those Skinner rods, not that I know of anyway. You could avoid Chinese-built jigging rods of this type, but it would involve spending a couple of hundy (or more) on a New Zealand-built light jigging blank (CTS) and then getting a local builder to make it up - or build it yourself, if you have the skill and time. Heck, the blank alone is more than a Grappler Type J. Hey, non-slave labor costs money!

I have one friend that dropped more than $700 on a custom CTS slow pitch rod - for fluke fishing. Can you imagine? That’s just not in most people's budget, that's for sure. Absolutely not mine either. Hey, I've got a needy boat to support! ?

Seriouisly though, at least with Shimano, Daiwa or J&H Tackle the profits on their rods go to NOT China. That's something anyway, right? I wish St. Croix, Edge, Hydra or some other USA manufacturer would get into the light jigging rod market, but sadly, they do not. I've heard even Kistler, All-Star and Star are now converting over to Chinese blanks. This is a battle already lost, as far as I can see.

Also, as is plainly obvious, SW tackle sales are dwarfed by the FW Bass market. And even worse, SW light jigging rods are but a tiny portion of the SW scene - and so FW Bass and the like are where those 'Murican builders put their emphasis. Wish it were not so, believe me.

 

[Jmorcos]

hi another question. How does carbon content affect the rod? In the same model, the grappler has 70% carbon content and the game has 80%. Again don’t understand what that means. Thanks!

 

[Leprechaun]

Well, (and this is a generality) the more carbon in a rod, the more "sensitive" its supposed to be. That's the popular industry trope anyway. Also in general, the more brittle - that's the part they don't like to talk about. A very high-carbon content blank is more prone to breaking - and must never be high-sticked.

Now as far as comparing the two Shimano rod lines you are interested in - The truth of the matter is that Shimano is the absolute master at telling you what they want you to hear, not necessarily what you really want to know. The best advertising department in the Industry, Shimano has.

There is no way to quantify what 70% vs 80% actually does for you without actually fishing the rods. That's why I asked for opinions from those that may have fished both rod families. This whole carbon fiber blank composition thing is very complicated, having a good bit more to do with how the carbon fiber cloth is laid on the rod mandrel, and less about the overall carbon content. Not to mention the TYPE of carbon fiber cloth used, which is another whole lengthy discussion I won't go into here.

This new-ish spiral wraping of the blank with a visible carbon tape started about 25 or more years ago in Asia (believe it or not Bass Pro Shops offered it on some of their Chinese-built rods over 25 yrs ago!), and was picked up here in the states by the original United Composites rod company - they called it "Double Helix" I believe. Not new and not their proprietary technology - despite some thinking that's the case. The whole idea of such a blank building method is to increase "hoop strength" so to prevent the rod blank from "oval-ing" under extreme bend. This is one of the main causes of blank failure under load and what many rod companies have been working on eliminating over the past 40 or so years.

If you want my WAG (wild-ass guess), here's what I think on the increased carbon content in the Game Type-G series. I think its because Shimano uses no fiber glass scrim as their first layer against the rod mandrel. Explanation follows - and this is getting into how the sausage gets made in the rod blank manufacturing world, so hang in there:

Because graphite (carbon) rods have always been more delicate than glass or glass/composite rods, most manufacturers put a super-thin first layer made of very fine fiberglass against the rod mandrel, prior to wrapping on the graphite cloth. This has always been the case, but it does take a bit away from the overall sensitivity of the finished blank.

Some firms, such as CTS in New Zealand and Hydra and Edge/NFC here in the USA (Edge/NFC is Gary Loomis' new company after his non-compete agreement with Shimano ran out, post Shimano's acquisition of the original G. Loomis company), all found a way of using NO fiberglass scrip in their blanks.

I don't believe they all do it exactly the same way, there are international patents involved I'm sure. But they all do it, for certain. This does increase sensitivity while not greatly increasing breakage, viz-a-viz more traditionally built graphite rods. But they still will break if you push them past their engineered limits (Edge and CTS have had their issues with breakage in the past before ironing out the issues. Mostly.)

So, here's my WAG: I think that Shimano is using some type of "fiber glass scrim-less" technology in their Game Type-J's, which they do not use in their Grappler rods. That's my thinking as to why they boast of a higher carbon content by 10% in the Game Type J rods. Again, just a guess on my part.

Bottom line, is this better and worth $100+ more of cost? I can't say, never having fished a Game Type-J rod. I can say that without a doubt the little Grappler Type-J that I own (the 6' ML spinning version) slugged it out with a 6' Brown shark in 80' of water two Summers ago, and got him almost to the boat, before my 40lb rig wore through 10' from my boat.

That and the overall performance envelope, (including sensitivity and taper) of the Grappler Type-J series have made them my top choice, dollar for dollar, in the jigging market - and that's why you always see me recommending them, when asked about a mid-priced jigging stick. Are the Game Type-J's better? Maybe, but are they over $100 better? Again, maybe . . .