So where are the BIG LI tog?

[Leprechaun]

And here I'm talking 8lbs and up. Not on my boat this season, or on most of my friend's boats as well. We've been chewing on this subject for a bit between us and no one has the real skinny. I personally am going with what a certain well-known South Shore charter captain told me in a private conversation, when I put the question directly to him.

His response: "Where are the local biggies? We caught them all."

Well, maybe not all, but most of them, I am convinced.

Sure, I know that some boats have gotten a few good ones this season, but the total numbers do appear to be down, and by a good bit.

Here's what I think in no particular order:

1/ Sport angler "predation" over the past 10 or so seasons. As soon as a rec-caught fish gets to 16", into the box it goes, never to grow to bruiser size. Here I'm as guilty as anyone else.

2/ Live fish marketing - and I'm especially including potting, both legal and illegal.

3/ Roller trawling that has destroyed much of the deep bottom habitat - like a good portion of 17, for example.

4/ the FFL - Look, the plain fact is that I know many guys who participate in this program, while currently having good-paying employment, many with solid 6-figure incomes. With this in mind, please educate me as to the reason they need to go out and buy fancy boats, using the ever-declining tog population as a means of covering a good part of their boat's expenses every Fall?

Of course there are some folks out there that really are in need of the extra income, that might be hurting financially. I do get it. But many others - yeah, not hurting at all. 25 x 15" fish/day for those that don't need the money? Does anybody really think this is a good idea? I'd love to hear and debate a counter-argument, because I believe that given the current thinning of the biomass, this FFL-thing is a HORRIBLE policy. How about this as a possible solution - Means Testing. Make more than a set reported annual income level earned NOT in this fishery, and no FFL for you.

5/ Slow growing breeder fish that were caught back in the 90's and early 2000's and sold off for the extra cash by "Sharpies and 'Masters.'" Again, I'm talking guys and their ilk that at the time made decent money and were just out to make some extra pocket cash. We all know those "high-profile personalities" that bragged back then about pulling many monster breeders, in size and quantity, from their formerly "secret kingpin drops" - those fish were forever removed from the biomass, along with their "larger fish genetic pool."

6/ I also have repeatedly heard some of these same guys taking the position that ". . . you could never fish out a species via hook and line pin fishing." Yeah, I'm calling B.S. on that nonsense as well. To me that comes across as guilty conscience justification. Removing the larger breeding stock can never be a recipe for long-term species viability. And with this slow-growing species, we're seeing the results of that avarice manifested now.

7/ On the plus side, I do think that this species is trying mightily to make a come-back - aided by increasingly tightened recreational regs. Witness the near-endless supply of sub-16" fish that infest most drops, both inshore and off. But without more help addressing the foregoing points, I do think fishing for this species is moving toward a true dictatorial scale-back (or even a shutdown) by the powers that be.

To head this off, I believe that its high time to grant this species full game fish status - and kill off the greed, once and for all.

I understand that this might be goring some well-known personal oxen, but you know what? I couldn't care less. Some things need to be said, and with me now well into my 7th decade, I no longer give a rat's a$$ who I irritate with my thoughts - not to say that I ever really did. . .

Anybody care (dare?) to comment?

 

[Hunter704]

I did do a lot of tog fishing this year i do not believe we had a fish over 6 lb this year tons of small fish which i guess is a good thing

 

[Togilator]

Solid post Pete that brings up many good points. I happen to agree with all you have said here. The tog fishery has been somewhat destroyed in NY/NJ/Delaware for so many reasons that you pointed out. luckily there is some hope in a few areas of LI,but not many. There is no other fish on the eastern seaboard with as much angler pressure on it like the tautog has seen the last 20 years in my opinion.

One thing I will add, even if you are a conservation minded angler and want to do the right thing by releasing fish you are still hurting the population by just fishing for them. Especially when targeting big fish on deep water wrecks. There's always a certain amount of fish that will not make it. For example, Last week in Maryland on a 140' sticky wreck we killed a 12,13 and 15 lb tog. All caught by very experienced toggers and not near there personal best fish. The guys would have released every fish but once the guts are coming way out the rear its over. Only good thing about that scenario was they were all male tog and you only need one dick down there on the wreck.

I think there's still some big ones left on the south shore of LI that you can catch in winter on the deep wrecks, like 160'.Obviously you need the proper license. There few and far between and have become dinosaurs but there's one here and there to be caught. I know one Captain on the south shore of LI that makes really long runs and participates in targeting them on really deep wrecks. They don't catch very many but do grab a dinosaur every know and then. They reel slow once fish is out of structure and have a system to release the big fish that works relatively well. We catch them in Maryland and Virginia to 200' deep in late Winter and spring, so think THE DEEP IS your best bet if you want to see a fish over 10 lbs on the south shore of LI.

 

[captmike28]

The slow but steady decline of many of our popular species is very painful for anyone who really loves this sport, perhaps even more so for those of us old enough to have experienced the really exceptional fishing for both quantity and size that occurred 30-40+ years ago on Long Island.

While there are many reasons that contribute to our current Tog situation, and Lep has mentioned most of them, let's not forget the very rapid improvement in the "tools of our trade". I am speaking of the pinpoint accuracy of modern GPS systems, the incredible resolution of current sonar machines with side scanning technology, amazing bathymetric charts identifying nearly every nuance of the bottom contours, and everyone's favorite, trolling motors with spot lock! There is no doubt in my mind that these devices, when properly utilized really tilt the odds in favor of even less than expert fisherman.

However, as both Lep and Togilator have noted, there is also the individual ethical stance of any given fisherman who really wants to do everything they can to preserve the stocks of fish we all claim to want to protect. Doing your best to catch and release any fish you truly do not need to harvest, regardless of its size, is important. Thankfully more anglers are recognizing it each year.

But there is also the very real problem of where some folks choose to draw the line between "need and greed". If your own personal financial situation is such that the only way you can keep fishing or running your own boat is by earning part of your living on the water, then I have no problem with that. Heck. I am not ashamed to admit my own retirement nest egg is very small and the only way I can hold onto my own vessel is to run my charter business. Believe me when I say it was never my plan to be doing this on my own, into my 70's if it was not absolutely necessary.

Still, I too am aware of several folks who subsidize their boat ownership, even though they really don't have any serious financial hardships, by harvesting Tog on a part time basis using a FFL. If you are, in your heart, a true sportsman and want to preserve a very slow growing and extremely popular local fish like Tog, I have a hard time understanding how in that situation you can justify this activity. If you really want to make some additional income in the maritime industry why not go the charter route like I did? At least, in my role I have to follow essentially the same harvest regulations as the rest of the recreational industry.

We can debate the possibility of changing the laws to prohibit this type of activity, but I do think that in these special situations it comes down to a matter of conscience. We have already seen what has happened to the Cod stocks which, in part, has contributed to the enormous pressure on Blackfish we see today. The numbers of really large Fluke, over 10# also seem to be on the decline. I feel it is up to all of us to really step up and do the best we can to save what's left for ourselves and especially our kids.

If we do not start making some better decisions soon, we will be left with this very stark reality. I just confirmed yesterday there is a well-known boat in RI that actually runs charters for Bergalls!! Anyone care to charter me for a Sea Robin trip next season? The number of birds in the Peconics is still quite high...for now.

 

[BennyV]

In my neck of the woods - Western Long Island Sound - we had a few fish around 8-10. We see a few, every year.

That being said most pieces were absolutely infested with short blackfish, Seabass, and porgies to make it pretty much nonstop action all day, which is awesome.

The issue in my area is the amount of boats hammering a few well known spots that hold fish - example is Rye Playland. It’s a parking lot from opening day until around Thanksgiving. There are other spots, but I think we need some sort of artificial reef program to alleviate pressure that is exerted on spots such as Rye Playland. I think it would be helpful for the tog population in my area.

But as Burgess Meredith said in Grumpy Old Men: “You can wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which one gets full first.”

 

[Roccus7]

FFL - Federal Fishing License??? Now I'm really confused. Do that many people make frequent trips offshore to make an impact? This isn't like folks in MA who get their state Striped Bass Commercial license, allowing them to catch multiple 35+" fish. This past season, with a huge inshore bunker population, these "Recremercial" put a serious hurt on larger bass, and MA filled its commercial quota for the first time in a few years.

Regardless, not sure if a Federal license is something that directly impacts inshore fishing and especially Western Sound, which is a pretty long "commute" for the fish. No doubt that in the Western Sound, the major impact are us recs, armed with all that new technology. I'm sure some silent sharpies have used their SSS to discover uncharted rockpiles/wrecks, and done very well over them parked with their Spot Locks.

An additional thought, and that is does the Asian live market really impact the larger fish since they tend to want just legal fish. Truth be told, they'd probably happier with sublegal fish.

I'll go out on a limb here, with the thought that the primary reason that there are fewer large togs is just the reason that so many fish are harvested when young, allowing fewer fish to go past "just legal". When you read the fishing reports here, many will comment about how they take extreme actions when out tog fishing to put some legal fish in the boat, not that there's anything wrong with that.

So with a slow growing fish with heavy fishing pressure like tog, and also cod, what do you do other than extreme bag reductions and/or short, limited seasons? I got nothing here, with the exception of slots which seems to be an anathema in the Northeast. People hate it with stripers, and scream bloody murder when folks suggest it for other species like fluke or tog. What I find humorous is these same folks who detest slots, often point to FL as a paragon for fish recreational fishing, as state that has many slot limits and very limited retention seasons.

Regardless, we have to ask ourselves, does our ego need massaging by the targeting and retaining larger fish whose population is being threatened?? Or will a few, smaller members of the species make a nice dinner, especially when some fish are much tastier when they're younger??? If more of us start thinking along these lines, our children and grandchildren stand a better chance of seeing the type of fishing we enjoyed with our parents when we were younger...

 

[Togilator]

I think Capt.Mikes point on innovation of new technology is spot on.Years back you needed serious knowledge and skill to get on a small piece. Now you drive over it and press a button. Spot lock amongst other new technology that he mentioned has really stepped up the pressure even more on tog. Just think how many more tog are caught because braided line. Its much easier for the average angler to decipher a bite these days than 25 years ago...

Rocus FFL stands for food fish license. I have no idea what licenses and permits are needed for commercial pin hook togging as I do not participate. The pressure on the Western south shore of LI all the way to Montauk has been pretty extreme the last 20 plus years due to the the high $ value of the fish on the live market .It seams like every Tom Dick and harry had a landing license or some sort of loop hole way to legally bring a pile of tog back to the dock. If they didn't have any license many just did it illegally...

 

[OVERBORED]

Many good points have been made by all.

With regard to guys fishing with FFLs, many guys I know have had them for a long time. Some no longer have boats. The rules governing these licenses are straightforward and clear however enforcement is lacking. Do guys with nice boats and money need them? Should they have them? No. Probably not. It then becomes about morals and ethics, neither of which is a fun conversation.
Back when they were giving FFLs away for free, EVERYONE WITHOUT A LICENCE was selling a few fish to pay fuel, dockage, etc. Some guys made a modest living pinhooking. Guys laughed at getting a license and having to report landings. It was a free for all. Now I feel there are fewer pirates but there are still severe gaps in enforcement that need to be addressed.

Second point, In the 80s and 90s, most guys didnt fish for Tog after Thanksgiving or in the Spring. Cod took over in the fall. Seabass, Flounder and Stripers took over in the spring.

For the last 20years, due to regulations and a lack of other species, Tog have been getting pounded every day. Get a bluebird day in Early November and you'll see every rockpile with a boat on it. No fish can sustain that kind of pressure!

Where do we go from here?

Revisit FFLs. Audit every license and prove the majority of your income for the past 10years comes from fishing or lose it.

Even better than gamefish status, ELIMINATE THE LIVE FISH MARKET......there I said it. Then it would be game over!

 

[HighHook4Hire]

Same applies to NJ. I have been out 3-4 times the past month with about 2 keepers to show for my efforts and expenses. Fish are few and far between here with mostly 13-14.5" fish coming up. Biggest I saw was about 7# in these trips with 15-20 guys per trip. Paltry boat numbers too, so its not just me sucking (which has been part of the equation for sure). Some guys blame water temps which have been screwed up in NJ since summer with this wacky weather, but I think we know deep down it is overfishing.

One additional topic you didn't mention Lep is Blackfish tournaments where lots of big fish get killed and only one (or a few) boat(s) take home the booty. 3 and 5 fish tourneys are killing lots of big tog for sake of ego.

In Florida I believe it is mandatory to use a deep sea release tool when fishing deepwater wrecks in case you encounter protected species. I actually have one such tool called the Seaquilizer, but never needed to use it. We can all release these deepwater fish with proper technique and equipment.

RI has a big fish slot and much stricter rec regs per vessel. Hate to say it, but that's probably where our region is headed since most anglers won't take the initiative to police themselves.