Some Facts On How Fluke Have Been Managed

george

george

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Staff member
COMMERCIAL VS RECREATIONAL SPLIT:
  • 60% commercial / 40% recreational allocation established in 1992
  • Based on 1980-1989 historical catch data (last stable period before stock collapse)
  • Commercial sector dominated with ~60% of 26,100 metric tons peak landings in 1983
CONSERVATION EQUIVALENCY PROBLEMS:
  • System allows states different regulations despite managing same fish stock
  • New Jersey consistently gets 1-2 inch smaller size limits than NY/CT (9 out of 10 years)
  • Based on unreliable data with 50-100%+ error rates (PSE values)
  • Violates scientific principle of managing stock as single unit
10-YEAR REGULATORY DISPARITIES (2014-2024):
  • 2014: All states had uniform 18" size limit, 5 fish bag limit
  • 2015-2024: NJ maintained consistent advantages with smaller size limits
  • NY/CT faced increasingly restrictive regulations despite more fish in their waters
  • Special NJ zones (Delaware Bay, Island Beach) provide additional advantages
DATA ACCURACY ISSUES:
  • MRIP survey data has 15-100%+ error rates for state-level estimates
  • Major data revisions: new estimates 1.5-3x higher than old estimates
  • ASMFC monitoring committees acknowledge "high PSEs" and data problems
  • System relies on data known to be inadequate for precise management
ECONOMIC/SOCIAL IMPACTS:
  • NY/CT anglers face 15-40% reduced harvest opportunities
  • Charter boat industry disadvantaged in NY/CT vs NJ
  • Creates unfair competition based on political boundaries, not fish location
  • Enforcement nightmare at state borders (same fish, different rules)
STOCK DISTRIBUTION MISMATCH:
  • Fish population shifted north since 1998 baseline allocations
  • More fish now in NY/CT waters, but they face most restrictive regulations
  • NJ keeps liberal rules despite fewer local fish
  • 1998 allocations don't reflect current reality
BOTTOM LINE: Conservation equivalency has failed - it creates persistent inequities, relies on bad data, and violates scientific management principles. The system needs comprehensive reform to restore fairness and effectiveness.

You can find more here: Summer Flounder Commercial vs Recreational Allocation
 
I've got a feeling that state-by-state regs will become regionalized and NY will be grouped with NJ, not CT. NJ would prefer MD/DE categorization,,, but no matter how you slice it the current allocation/regulation setup ain't working. And garbage science can't help. And with respect to fluke, commercial fishing during the offshore spawn is ludicrous. The good news is that friends on state and fed boards say that the rec Fisherman is now well represented at those agencies. How loud the rec voice vs comm voice is received will be telling.
 
Conservation equivalency has failed.....agreed. However NJ didn't just "get" more favorable regulations. They opted for a shorter season and set their own regs.

What did NY do?

Shot themselves in the foot but selecting a longer, more restrictive season! 18" vs. 19.5" is a HUGE difference as most can attest.

I applaud NJ for realizing early in the process that they need a shorter limit.

That said, I feel the Comm. Landing numbers are BS. As of August 7, NJ comms. Have landed approximately 700,000lbs with a quota of approximately 1.4 million. Hmmmmm......
 
So where do I sign?? Captain Mike's 4 fish at 18"-23" and a short season. I will take it here on the north shore all day. I don't think you will have any problem convincing the head boat crowd up here, as they have been picking Scup for over a month, as fluking is a waste of time.
While I am giving my two cents, I think the draggers need to give a little, too. How about their daily poundage stays the same, but NOTHING gets thrown back. Everything goes to market with no discard. The money fish and the trash fish all get weighed. Every fish has some monetary value. Some more than others.
regards Holty
 
holty said:
So where do I sign?? Captain Mike's 4 fish at 18"-23" and a short season. I will take it here on the north shore all day. I don't think you will have any problem convincing the head boat crowd up here, as they have been picking Scup for over a month, as fluking is a waste of time.
While I am giving my two cents, I think the draggers need to give a little, too. How about their daily poundage stays the same, but NOTHING gets thrown back. Everything goes to market with no discard. The money fish and the trash fish all get weighed. Every fish has some monetary value. Some more than others.
regards Holty
Click to expand...
The com quota is set at 60% and being their hitting their quotas that will not change any time soon. And don't take this the wrong way, but I'm getting tired of hearing about the "head boat crowd". I'm thinking about the guys that I fish with and the 1/2 million people that enjoy fishing and eating fish right here in NY. We spend a lot time and money on our passion and to think we throw back more fish we can keep is sickening. We 2 gutted 19 inch fish that could of fed 4 people. Instead they fed the crabs. That's not to mention the many other shorts that died.

Not matter how I look at I see a broken system, one that relies on bad data. Ams we area getting screwed.
 
OVERBORED said:
That's what our officials want to sell you. NJ had the same options. They chose a shorter season. We chose a longer season.
Click to expand...
They sold you, not me. So we can put this to bed once and for all.. Here are the options for 2025.

Options NJ considered:
• Option 23: 3 fish, 17.5”, May 24 – Sept 4 (104 days)
• Option 24: 1 fish 17–<18” + 2 fish ≥18”, June 4 – Aug 31 (89 days)
• Option 32: 3 fish, 18”, May 4 – Sept 25 (145 days)
• Option 41: 1 fish 17–18” + 1 fish ≥18” May 10 – June 30, then 3 fish ≥18” July 1 – Sept 15 (129 days)
• Option 57: 3 fish ≥18” from boats, 2 fish ≥17” from shore, May 16 – Sept 23 (131 days)
• Option 58: 1 fish ≥17.5” + 2 fish ≥18”, May 26 – Sept 13 (111 days)

NJ Final Choice for 2025:
Option 32.
• 3 fish at 18”
• Season May 4 – Sept 25
• Delaware Bay 3 fish at 17”
• Island Beach State Park surf 2 fish at 16”

⸻

New York – 2025 Fluke Options

(DEC put out a different menu in early 2024)

Options NY considered:
• Option 1: 3 fish, 19”, May 1 – Sept 8
• Option 2: 3 fish, 19”, May 5 – Sept 14
• Option 3: 3 fish, 19”, May 17 – Sept 20
• Option 4: 3 fish, 19”, May 1 – July 24 and Aug 4 – Oct 9
• Option 5: 4 fish, 19.5”, Apr 1 – Oct 31
• Option 6: 3 fish, 18.5”, June 12 – Aug 28

NY Final Choice for 2025:
• 3 fish bag limit
• Split size:
• 19” from May 4 – Aug 1
• 19.5” from Aug 2 – Oct 15

We get fewer fish than NJ based on a 1998 baseline. Meening, they look at 98 and decide who was catching what and then split it from there. That is no adjustment for the fact that fluke are moving north, or that the actual study has 28% accuracy.
 
holty said:
George, I have no sympathy for the head boat crowd, but their influence on the limits must be strong.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I think we play into it too much. They have been pushing for their own category forever. Something I have steadfastly opposed. I saw it as a divide and conquer. I saw and still view open and charter boat bringing But my views are now beginning to change as we see more and more regs cared out in favor of for hire boats. I'm not opposed to that, but I don't think they represent the vast majority of anglers. The represent maximum profit, just like any business. And they know very well what their customers want, so yes It's time to make the split. We already have it with scup and bluefish and that didn't cause a ripple.

I owe the boats for hire a lot throughout my career, as they supported me through my 35-yeasr plus of publishing Nor'east Saltwater and noreast.com. Their anglers needs and wants are different from the individual angler, and it's time we recognized it.

But to further your point, and @OVERBORED . . . why do you think "we" chose to increase buy 1/2 inch so we could fish until Oct. 15? When you consider the amount of people that target fluke throughout the season, and you're asking the majority of them to give up a vital 1/2 in so they can fish fluke until October 15? I'm thinking the only boats fishing at that time are in Montauk.
 
Amen George!

Once you've identified the different recreational groups you can examine the needs of each.

For hire has too much influence on the recreational regs. Would a shorter season and better size and bag limits work for the not for hire sector? I absolutely think so. But we are not organizing enough to present the option at various meetings.

Would you be happy with 5 fish at 18" June 15-Sept1?

Sounds good to me but for hires would hit the roof!

As an aside, recs need to do a better job educating NY State representatives as to what's happening on the water.
 
That still doesn't solve the inequities between states. If we continue to base this fishery, or any fishery on history, then we will always get less. We all deserve the same amount of fish no matter how many our parents caught.

Also I'm afraid that the day of the advocate is gone. Have you been to a meeting recently? They truly are now a total waste of time. Aside from here do you see this being discussed anywhere? As the founder of CCA-NY back in the day I know what it takes and I'm not convinced it can ever return. Its not that jersey is so much better it's that the few still involved are highly regarded. But when they step down they won't have anyone either.
 
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