Vessel documentation vs Registration ???

[Bucktail II]

Which is preferred and why?
Does a documented vessel also need to be registered in NYS?

 

[Roccus7]

Which is preferred and why?
Does a documented vessel also need to be registered in NYS?

In the "Old Days" you'd see most every documented vessel with "Dover, Delaware" on their transoms. You used to be able to set up a Delaware Corporation and circumvent NYS Sales Tax". I'd bet that's not an option any more, but that was the reason for most recreational vessels being documented. Documented vessels need not be registered in NY.

 

[Leprechaun]

I was always under the impression that it had something to do with either USCG or insurance reasons - for a for-hire charter vessel. I dunno though.

 

[poorrichard]

Yes Recreationally Documented Vessels Must also be registered in N.Y. State
Take a guess why? Here's a hint $$$$$$$

Commercially Documented vessels do not need to be registered in NY State

 

[Bucktail II]

OK.....now some back round for my question.

I purchased a 31 Downeaster. Boat was previously documented with a coastal fisheries endorsement. I've already submitted the USGC/ Homeland security paperwork to transfer ownership and name change as a recreational vessel.
When I called the documentation center in West Virginia, the petty officer I spoke with said it DIDN'T need to be registered in my home state. The NYSDMV rules and descriptions aren't exactly clear. I want to make sure I'm doing everything correct.

 

[Avenger]

It absolutely does need to be registered here because sales tax. Plus I'm sure NY can't resist the income stream from the registration fees. That Delaware deal is a thing of the past. They're aware of it now and authorities are watching for it.

You do not need to display registration numbers. In fact, you will not get a number but you must still display the sticker.

It has some advantages and disadvantages. Lending institutions want documentation because it makes the boat an entity that they can lien. If you're traveling internationally it can make customs issues easier too. Obviously the downside is that you have to pay the renewal fees and maintain the documentation. Right now it's $28.00 a year, but I think they're bumping to a five year term. So it will be $28 x 5. It used to be free to renew, but you know, government.

I like not having numbers on the boat, and I think it makes the local authorities slightly less inclined to board you when they're bored and doing their routine harassment. Other than the above there are no particular plusses that justify the cost.

 

[poorrichard]

I am an instructor for the NY State Safe Boating Program. We teach this in class.

Recreational vessels that are documented in NY State must be registered.

Remember, requirements vary from state to state.

The petty officer is a federal employee, not a state employee

Yes, it is all about the sales tax and registration fees!

 

[Capt Richie]

Im documented ..had to register & pay NY sales Tax when I bought the boat..

NY State than sent me a new registration with a side note ..If your'e CG documented you can opt out of NY state registration & I did..No problem almost ten years now..Have been stopped & checked no problems...I do pay a yearly fee to homeland security ..

 

[Avenger]

Im documented ..had to register & pay NY sales Tax when I bought the boat..

NY State than sent me a new registration with a side note ..If your'e CG documented you can opt out of NY state registration & I did..No problem almost ten years now..Have been stopped & checked no problems...I do pay a yearly fee to homeland security ..

That is very interesting.

NYS contacted me around a year after I had bought the boat about the sales tax. I hadn't registered it immediately because it was immobile for a while and I had no designs on using it until it was, so I didn't want to burn the registration clock on a boat that was tied to the dock.

Apparently the USCG sends updates to state DMV when a documentation changes hands. I had registered and paid the tax about a month before, so all I had to do was send them a copy of the receipt. But I've been renewing the NYS reg ever since. I just @$$umed I had to.

That's good info, I will definitely look into this.

 

[Capt Richie]

That is very interesting.

NYS contacted me around a year after I had bought the boat about the sales tax. I hadn't registered it immediately because it was immobile for a while and I had no designs on using it until it was, so I didn't want to burn the registration clock on a boat that was tied to the dock.

Apparently the USCG sends updates to state DMV when a documentation changes hands. I had registered and paid the tax about a month before, so all I had to do was send them a copy of the receipt. But I've been renewing the NYS reg ever since. I just @$$umed I had to.

That's good info, I will definitely look into this.

this is the second boat I have done it too...I did the same thing as you with my first boat ..and NY state contacted me with fines & fees ..because I delayed paying sales tax do to the long wait for my CG doc... they waved the fees & fine & I just paid the sales tax..The woman told me I didnt need a NY reggie,,,..

CG Doc. has a min size requirement I think its 28' ..

 

[Avenger]

this is the second boat I have done it too...I did the same thing as you with my first boat ..and NY state contacted me with fines & fees ..because I delayed paying sales tax do to the long wait for my CG doc... they waved the fees & fine & I just paid the sales tax..The woman told me I didnt need a NY reggie,,,..

CG Doc. has a min size requirement I think its 28' ..

They were very nice about the whole thing. I think, as long as they can see you're not trying to dodge the S/T it's all good with them. But my dad's boat was documented and he kept paying for the registration, and I thought you had to also.

I'm going to have to deal with DMV soon anyway because I'm trying to get my vehicle's registration out of the corporation because private insurance is about 10% of corporate. (And we wonder why businesses are leaving town) so I'll definitely be looking into this and will report back here how it goes.

Minimum size is weird, as is the rest of the math. My understanding of the minimum size is it's a Gross Register Tonnage number which is a volumetric calculation based on a formula of length, breadth and depth. i.e. my boat is 36ft, 12'10" and draws 3' but the doc shows it as 34 x 12.5 x 6.8. Classing out at 20 GRT and 14 NRT. None of that makes any sense compared to the actual numbers. But I believe their estimation is that a boat smaller than 28' will not calculate out to the minimum.

 

[Capt Richie]

Im 32,2 x 11.2 by 9.5 dry tons ,,,

I was told the under 28 boats not able to travel interstate ,,

 

[Pangaroo]

Around 1989 the State started checking if Documented Boats were registered in NY.

 

[Bassknuckles]

The only reasons to consider documenting a vessel is if your traveling to foreign countries as it is easier for clearance with foreign authorities, Security purposes if your vessel is ever stolen and bought across state lines, it is easier to finance a boat and it is a lifetime documentation. If you want to continue to document the boat you need to go to complete the application. If you do not want to continue to document the boat you need to get the deletion document from the Coast Guard releasing the boat.

For NY DMV if your documenting the boat you need a copy of the CG1258 application along with all the other DMV paperwork. NY DMV will will assign a temporary NY number until the documentation is complete and when the you receive the CG documentation number you need to go back to DMV to get the new registration with the document number assigned by the Coast Guard. Yes it's a pain in the a$$.

For NY DMV if your not documenting the boat you need the DMV paperwork completed the CG1270 from the previous owner, the deletion document and the CG bill of sale.

Yes you pay sales tax no matter what.

 

[Bucktail II]

Thanks for the information !

One more question. Being the boat is already documented and has the permanent number, there should be no need to return to the DMV to get a new registration......correct?

 

[Avenger]

this is the second boat I have done it too...I did the same thing as you with my first boat ..and NY state contacted me with fines & fees ..because I delayed paying sales tax do to the long wait for my CG doc... they waved the fees & fine & I just paid the sales tax..The woman told me I didnt need a NY reggie,,,..

CG Doc. has a min size requirement I think its 28' ..

I was looking at the DMV website, and it says commercial vessels that are documented do not have to be registered. They don't elaborate any more than that, so I'll try asking, but I suspect recreational docs are still required to maintain a registration.

 

[Capt Richie]

I was looking at the DMV website, and it says commercial vessels that are documented do not have to be registered. They don't elaborate any more than that, so I'll try asking, but I suspect recreational docs are still required to maintain a registration.

I do have an EIN# in the business..maybe that's why they asked me if I wanted to opt out ? not sure but good since 2003

 

[Capt Richie]

also thinking that yes you do have to register it to pay the tax ,,I did but when it was up they sent me a letter to opt out if I wanted too...so I did..

 

[Avenger]

I was looking at the VAT portion of NYS laws and it looks like that only applies to commercial vessels:



§ 2252. Exemption from registration. 1. The provisions of section
twenty-two hundred fifty-one of this article shall not apply to the
following vessels:
(a) Vessels having a valid marine document issued by the United States
or a foreign government, while being used for commercial purposes.
(b) Vessels displaying a valid identification or registration number
issued by another state under a numbering system which has been approved
in accordance with the provisions of federal law, provided such vessel
shall not have been within this state for a period in excess of ninety
consecutive days.
(c) Vessels owned by residents of foreign countries temporarily using
the waters of the state.
(d) Vessels owned by the United States, a state, or a subdivision
thereof.
(e) Boats which are "lifeboats." No vessel which is used for other
than lifesaving purposes shall be deemed a "lifeboat" for purposes of
this subdivision.
(f) Vessels used exclusively for racing.
(g) Any vessel which is not equipped with a motor by which it may be
mechanically propelled.
2. Notwithstanding the provisions of subdivision one of this section,
the owner of a vessel which is exempt from the provisions of section
twenty-two hundred fifty-one of this article may apply for, and the
commissioner may issue, a registration for such vessel. If such a
registration is issued, and while such registration is in effect, the
provisions of this article relating to certificates of registration,
registration numbers and validating stickers shall apply to such vessel.
Upon the expiration of the registration of any such vessel, the
registration number assigned to it shall be effectively removed from
such vessel.