AFSMC Striper Meeting

[SoCalFishMan]

My understanding, based on what I was able to find and have heard over the years, is that stripers spawn in brackish flowing water in the upper 50's to 60. They supposedly need the flow to keep the eggs from silting over. My understanding is that bass mostly winter in the Hudson or Chesapeake, spawn, then spread out over the coast. There is some wintering and spawning in some of the other rivers. Not all fish spawn every year. You can follow the migration on OnTheWater.

That said, I have heard folks who would know, claim to have witnessed active spawning in Raritan Bay in April. Yet, everything I've read or heard states that the water is too cold, not brackish and not flowing. Everything I've ever heard or read is that south shore bass winter in the Chesapeake. It does not make sense they would leave the Chesapeake and swim to Raritan Bay to spawn in sub 50 degree water.
The western sound season starts in earnest in May and is usually about done, except for some night fishing, by July 4. The fish pouring out of the Hudson in May and June, as best as I can tell, are not spawning in the sound and either have spawned in the Hudson or will not spawn that year.

Is there any evidence that a significant body of bass leave the bay, swim to open water and spawn in the open south shore or north shore waters?

I would support a one fish, 26" to 34" slot. I'd even agree to catch and release till June 1. Closed till July 1 is fighting words for anyone west of Eatons Neck!

I think the OP's point was to stop fishing the Hudson stock while the spawn is going on since active fishing occurs before and during the spawn. Fish don't just winter in the river in fact the majority winter in the ocean and then swim to the river to spawn. A lot of the raritan fish in April are pre-spawn Hudson fish that winter down south and offshore. All Chesapeake fish don't head down the South Shore and all the Hudson fish don't just go through the LIS they take both routes.

 

[george]

I have fished the spawn a few times and I have mixed feelings on it. The experience of fishing the Hudson River cannot be overstated. Watching a live herring fly 5 feet in the air while being stalked by a bass is a thrill. And If you enjoy fishing for striped bass while surrounded by awesome scenery, then you owe it to yourself to do it at least once. If you're lucky enough, you might see an actual spawn.

People are quick to say "stop them fishing the spawn." Lets first consider the anglers in that region. Because remember, the best thing for the fish would be no one ever fishing, and I doubt that's what we want. Hodson anglers are outdoors people that care for that river, and always have. They are as conservation-minded as much if not more than most anglers. They get to fish for striped bass for 4-6 weeks and they too should be allowed some fish. The fishery is huge business up there, and I could never support shutting them out unless of course, the stock was in trouble. And if that was the case Hudson anglers would be the first to suggest the shutdown. Besides, right now the Hudson stock is in the best shape it's ever been. The Chesapeake stock is in much worse shape.

Yes, the fish they catch are spawning, and I personally don't like disturbing the spawn. But these are the same fish that thousands of anglers will slaughter as they leave the river a few days later. Those first few weeks of May account for many fish over 30-pounds taken- all prime spawners - as they weave through the hundreds of boats from NY and CT anchored with chunks. Those are the same exact fish anglers have a problem being taken in the river. Those fish will never return and spawn again. We all know it's true. How would the fleet like to wait until June to allow these spawners to disperse? I didn't think so.

 

[Bucktail]

My point is that IF, and that’s a big IF the resource is in trouble , leaving the bass to spawn unmolested and then disperse without being harvested would be a good thing.

 

[george]

My point is that IF, and that’s a big IF the resource is in trouble , leaving the bass to spawn unmolested and then disperse without being harvested would be a good thing.

You are not alone my friend.

 

[george]

Things are now moving at light speed as regulators grapple with the sudden urgency of the ASMFC to get a hold of things. There's a good chance that we will see changes in the fall - I can't recall a time where they've done this mid-season. It really puts a lot of strain of charter and party boats and the anglers they take fishing as they don't even know what the regs are. If they can't wait until next season to make the changes then shame on them for letting it get this far.

If they need a stopgap and they're so concerned then simply apply the same regs to the rest of the coast that NY has volunteered over the years by taking just one fish. Let's get the entire coast at 1 fish at 28 for now, and then come out with a plan.

 

[Matts]

"in fact the majority winter in the ocean and then swim to the river to spawn. A lot of the raritan fish in April are pre-spawn Hudson fish that winter down south and offshore. "

That makes a lot of sense and explains what's going on.
Personally, I feel slot limits are the best way to keep folks happy and protect the fishery.

 

[pequa1]

I agree about slot limits for stripers and fluke. But try to convince the party boat operators and bait shop owners. Oy !!

 

[SoCalFishMan]

I don't really get the benefit of a slot (other than the assumption a person would catch their keeper faster and would actually stop fishing reducing mortality).

Why would killing more fish (catch more small fish than large fish) and killing them before they spawn be more effective than killing them after they've had a chance to spawn?

 

[pequa1]

A couple of theories on this. As you said, some people (and definitely me) would stop fishing and go home with their keeper. No further C & R, no further possibilities of killing a fish. I guess this would not be the case on party boats though. I often quit surfcasting and leave when its apparent that no blues are around and the stripers are nowhere near keeper size. Doing C & R with schoolies, and undoubtedly killing a certain percentage of them even though I don't use bait and don't gut hook, is just not for me. If there were a slot limit, say 26 to 32", I would be going home after catching one, whether on my boat, my kayak or on the beach. Regarding the keeping of these smaller fish, some believe that the amount of roe a 34" bass that would be released to spawn again and again, outweighs the 26" schoolie that could be one's sole keeper. I think the slot limit might make even more sense for fluke, but I really don't see in the first place why the bag limit for them has to be as high as four.
Back in the 70s I took advantage of laws allowing limitless catches of flounder and 14" fluke, as did many. Now flounder in my area are virtually extinct and keeper fluke in the local bay were few and far between for me last season.
Anyway, I am just a rec, and I think the moneyed interests will continue to fight slot limits tooth and nail.

 

[SoCalFishMan]

A couple of theories on this. As you said, some people (and definitely me) would stop fishing and go home with their keeper. No further C & R, no further possibilities of killing a fish. I guess this would not be the case on party boats though. I often quit surfcasting and leave when its apparent that no blues are around and the stripers are nowhere near keeper size. Doing C & R with schoolies, and undoubtedly killing a certain percentage of them even though I don't use bait and don't gut hook, is just not for me. If there were a slot limit, say 26 to 32", I would be going home after catching one, whether on my boat, my kayak or on the beach. Regarding the keeping of these smaller fish, some believe that the amount of roe a 34" bass that would be released to spawn again and again, outweighs the 26" schoolie that could be one's sole keeper. I think the slot limit might make even more sense for fluke, but I really don't see in the first place why the bag limit for them has to be as high as four.
Back in the 70s I took advantage of laws allowing limitless catches of flounder and 14" fluke, as did many. Now flounder in my area are virtually extinct and keeper fluke in the local bay were few and far between for me last season.
Anyway, I am just a rec, and I think the moneyed interests will continue to fight slot limits tooth and nail.

I don't think the majority of anglers (myself included) would stop fishing when they get a keeper. I love eating fish but I'm there to fish and I do believe that most people would think that way.

I go back to my initial thoughts that more fish are being kept (easier and more likely to catch a 26" - 32" fish than a 36"+ fish) and that 34" fish you referenced can be removed before ever getting to 34 inches with a 26" to 32" slot never allowing it to spawn at all.

I'm not against a slot I just don't get the science of it, it intuitively doesn't make sense to me?

To me a minimum size that allows every fish to spawn at least once or however spawn however many times is determined as the sustainable number makes so much sense.

 

[george]

I don't think the majority of anglers (myself included) would stop fishing when they get a keeper. I love eating fish but I'm there to fish and I do believe that most people would think that way.

I go back to my initial thoughts that more fish are being kept (easier and more likely to catch a 26" - 32" fish than a 36"+ fish) and that 34" fish you referenced can be removed before ever getting to 34 inches with a 26" to 32" slot never allowing it to spawn at all.

I'm not against a slot I just don't get the science of it, it intuitively doesn't make sense to me?

To me a minimum size that allows every fish to spawn at least once or however spawn however many times is determined as the sustainable number makes so much sense.

I agree with much of what you expressed in your post, and the striped bass resurgence happened without a slot. I personally feel the return of the striped bass is one of the greatest success stories in the history of fisheries management. It was accomplished pretty straight forward, no commercial catch meaning no targeting with draggers or gill nets, and a 36-inch minimum for rec anglers. That is what it took to bring it back, there was no slot.

I'm not suggesting we go to 36-inches, but I do think we should try bringing the rest of the coast in line with NY. Give that a few years and let's see what happens.

For those of you that haven't been through this, please understand that every sector will be threatened. That is unless you fish commercially. It's been made clear this is a rec problem. They will blame the charter boats and party boats, they will blame the weekend worrier, and the real anglers being threatened here are the surf casters. "OMG they're using treble hooks on their lures," and then they "drag them through the sand" and tear the fish apart as they take out the 9-hooks that are stuck in the fish." Their numbers show that surf casters are killing more fish bycatch and release than we keep. Don't be alarmed. It's all part of the drama that will play out between now and the fall. I highly recommend you attend any hearing on this you can make. Aside from a few diehards, rec anglers are being under-represented these days, and it needs to be changed.

As soon as they come out with their recommendations the group that's best organized and presents their case cordially will have the best chance of being heard. I still think the decision has already been made and the northern states - from NJ-ME will see a 1 fish bag and a 32-inch minimum. And NY will get nothing for being on the safe side all of these years by keeping one fish instead of the 2. Had every state done that maybe we wouldn't be in this situation.

 

[pequa1]

So status quo? Along with that bacterial disease... moratorium

 

[george]

So status quo? Along with that bacterial disease... moratorium

It's not going to happen, my guess is 1 at 32 coastwide. But I firmly believe we should reward and incentivize states to be conservative by giving some type of credit in cases like this, for volunteering to take less fish. Had we been taking 2-fish this whole time the fishery would have been cut back years ago.

We'd like to think we were doing the right thing and saving fish, but sadly the system doesn't let you save fish. If you don't take them, then someone else will.

 

[Roccus7]

I'm FIRMLY against 1 @ 32". That means I wouldn't have caught a keeper last year out of the 600+ I caught. Bad enough I only got to keep 4...

Being on the Northern Fringe of the migration means very few large fish come up to visit. My PB up here has been a lone 34" fish, back when I couldn't keep it; at that time it was either one at 22-26" or one at 40" or more. I've only caught 2 fish 32" or better out of > 2000 fish.

I WILL quit soon after getting a keeper, as I usually do. I have to factor in "prep and cleaning time" into the "Honey, I'll be back in the door at 9:30" schedule. I'd say I've been 80% compliant with that.

I propose a 24/6 - 32" slot, 1 fish scenario...

And NO FISHING AT ALL on the spawning grounds during the spawn. Sorry guys, but even just hooking a breeder can spook it so badly it no longer wants to spawn. Maine has been quietly protecting the small Kennebec breeding population with some pretty stiff rules...

SPECIAL KENNEBEC** REGULATIONS
(including the Sheepscot and Androscoggin Rivers and all related bays and tributaries)
CATCH & RELEASE SEASON WITH SPECIAL GEAR RESTRICTIONS From May 1 through June 30, inclusive. Fishing
in this area is restricted to single hooked* artificial lures only and use of or possession of marine bait, dead or alive, is prohibited.

OPEN SEASON July 1 through November 30, inclusive.

CLOSED SEASON Striped bass fishing is prohibited from December 1 through
April 30, inclusive.

(* may be a single treble hook)

 

[george]

I'm FIRMLY against 1 @ 32". That means I wouldn't have caught a keeper last year out of the 600+ I caught. Bad enough I only got to keep 4...

Being on the Northern Fringe of the migration means very few large fish come up to visit. My PB up here has been a lone 34" fish, back when I couldn't keep it; at that time it was either one at 22-26" or one at 40" or more. I've only caught 2 fish 32" or better out of > 2000 fish.

I WILL quit soon after getting a keeper, as I usually do. I have to factor in "prep and cleaning time" into the "Honey, I'll be back in the door at 9:30" schedule. I'd say I've been 80% compliant with that.

I propose a 24/6 - 32" slot, 1 fish scenario...

And NO FISHING AT ALL on the spawning grounds during the spawn. Sorry guys, but even just hooking a breeder can spook it so badly it no longer wants to spawn. Maine has been quietly protecting the small Kennebec breeding population with some pretty stiff rules...

SPECIAL KENNEBEC** REGULATIONS
(including the Sheepscot and Androscoggin Rivers and all related bays and tributaries)
CATCH & RELEASE SEASON WITH SPECIAL GEAR RESTRICTIONS From May 1 through June 30, inclusive. Fishing
in this area is restricted to single hooked* artificial lures only and use of or possession of marine bait, dead or alive, is prohibited.

OPEN SEASON July 1 through November 30, inclusive.

CLOSED SEASON Striped bass fishing is prohibited from December 1 through
April 30, inclusive.

(* may be a single treble hook)

Each state has the option of conservation equivelent. You need to work on something that allows you to keep some fish and gets approved by asmfc.

 

[buddha162]

Each state has the option of conservation equivelent. You need to work on something that allows you to keep some fish and gets approved by asmfc.

Unless you're NJ, put up a conservation equivalent that was rejected, go out of compliance, get rewarded by the Commerce Sec. My state is absolutely ridiculous...second only to MD when it comes to fisheries politics.

From what I read 1@28 is not going to cut it...everyone will hurt, but everyone will hurt worse if the fishery collapses.

 

[george]

Unless you're NJ, put up a conservation equivalent that was rejected, go out of compliance, get rewarded by the Commerce Sec. My state is absolutely ridiculous...second only to MD when it comes to fisheries politics.

From what I read 1@28 is not going to cut it...everyone will hurt, but everyone will hurt worse if the fishery collapses.

This is a prime of example of what happens when you manage a fish coast wide. Some get screwed. NJ won't be one them though. Not as long as my good friend Tom Fote is around. You may disagree with him, as many do, but NJ gets more time to fish and keep more fish, than any state on the coast. It's true they went out of compliance, but I don't think it cost them anything. So they fished while NY's were tied at the dock.

NJ will always get to keep their commercial fish which aren't used. I'm sure if they can be used as part of a conservation equivalent they will be.

It's funny though, what New Yorkers have fished on for years is unacceptable to NJ. I'm not at all surprised as that has been the reaction up and down the coast. New York is the true leader of conservation, and I see no reason for us to take any reduction as recognition of our conservative practices.

 

[Roccus7]

Each state has the option of conservation equivelent. You need to work on something that allows you to keep some fish and gets approved by asmfc.

Yeah, we did that years ago, and tried again when the 28" came up, but ASMFC made us go with a 24-26" slot. Not much of a slot and Maine DMR decided it would be impossible to enforce, so they accepted the 28".

At least nobody here is talking about doing anything on the state level in 2019. We'll see what the "Nobel Laureates (NOT)" at ASFMC decide. I'm thinking we won't see anything until spring 2020 at the earliest, but if proposals are very Draconian, I'm thinking states like MD and NJ will raise such a stink we won't see anything until 2021.

I do hope that ASFMC does take the Myco data seriously. If you think about it from an epidemiological perspective, larger fish SHOULD NOT be harvested if the proposed infection rate is as high as people say. These larger fish would probably be Myco resistant and might be passing along to the next generation that resistance if it is a genetic trait. They should NOT be the target of the harvest. Better to have younger fish targeted, that may or may not be resistant, if you're trying to promote reproduction of resistant fish.

 

[george]

Yeah, we did that years ago, and tried again when the 28" came up, but ASMFC made us go with a 24-26" slot. Not much of a slot and Maine DMR decided it would be impossible to enforce, so they accepted the 28".

At least nobody here is talking about doing anything on the state level in 2019. We'll see what the "Nobel Laureates (NOT)" at ASFMC decide. I'm thinking we won't see anything until spring 2020 at the earliest, but if proposals are very Draconian, I'm thinking states like MD and NJ will raise such a stink we won't see anything until 2021.

I do hope that ASFMC does take the Myco data seriously. If you think about it from an epidemiological perspective, larger fish SHOULD NOT be harvested if the proposed infection rate is as high as people say. These larger fish would probably be Myco resistant and might be passing along to the next generation that resistance if it is a genetic trait. They should NOT be the target of the harvest. Better to have younger fish targeted, that may or may not be resistant, if you're trying to promote reproduction of resistant fish.

ASMFC is going to address it this year, so I'm thinking ME will be included. Why wouldn't they? Also, Hudson fish have not been affected or infected with Myco, and the Chesapeake doesn't fish during the spawn. Although they do have their trophy season that I would equate to all of the pre-spawners they're catching in Raritan Bay right now.

I also think it's a reach to think any bass is resistant to myco. We just don't know enough yet. If I were in Maine and I wanted to keep a few fish, I'd work on moving the commercial fish to the rec side with your slot using tags like NJ. You would still have the same rec regs plus the com fish. It's only fair you guys get some fish, so why not use the system to your favor? You're not saving them for ME anyhow. You're saving them for the entire coast. I hope Brad Burns isn't reading this

 

[Roccus7]

ASMFC is going to address it this year, so I'm thinking ME will be included. Why wouldn't they?

Of course ME would be included, I'm just really skeptical that ASMFC will actually address this in terms of actions for any of the 2019 season. Have they yet to "approve" the survey yet? They can't move at anything but slow motion, and extreme measures will be met by extreme resistance, further elongating the timeline...

BTW George, the Addendum IV Maine commercial quota is a MASSIVE 188 lbs. With the old 22-26" slot, I'd fill that myself, LOL...