Does Anyone Care Any More?

[george]

Sadly, this is not the attitude of most captains who voice their opinions on fisheries management. Claiming that the bass are not in trouble...being able to say that with a straight face, imo strips those captains of all credibility. They are not on my side as a rec angler, they are in it for themselves, and they will gladly kill the last fish swimming if regulations were up to them.

You have a legitimate point here. There are many conservation-minded captains, most of which you will never hear from. I have fished with captains that wanted a voluntary reduction in tog years before they ran into trouble. They saw the writing on the wall, and they were right. Problem is they're in a tough spot - they have the rec angler against them, they have coms against them, can we expect them to go against the outspoken charter captains too?

We need to tout our economic and political strength when working to effect management decisions. Sadly these issues will always outweigh the actual science. We need to find common ground with the industry and influence the future of their business. Putting them in their own category will only make it harder to get anything done.

 

[crabby]

Buddha, there are captains that have patrons that fish only with them because they know they can keep just about everything they catch. These are usually the ones that yell the loudest at the meetings. Yes they are in it for the money and will kill the as many fish as they see fit to keep their fares happy.
Then there are the boats that are in close proximity to neighboring states. They are competing with shorter length limits and a higher cull limits. They are also going to yell about regs, and I don't blame them.
The rest of the captains go along with regs even though they feel the science is wrong, but if you shut down a season on them they may be out of business. So they need to fight also.

A very respected captain once told me that any rec fishery will never be the reason a species is over fished. We just don't catch the numbers that comm boats can.

 

[MakoMike]

We need to tout our economic and political strength when working to effect management decisions. Sadly these issues will always outweigh the actual science. We need to find common ground with the industry and influence the future of their business. Putting them in their own category will only make it harder to get anything done.

I absolutely disagree with that. What we need to do is to bring the ASMFC under the jurisdiction of the MSA, where the decisions must be based on science, not on political economics. If the ASMFC followed the science, like the councils and NMFS are required to, we wouldn't have these problems with the striped bass and blackfish populations.

 

[Capt13]

A very respected captain once told me that any rec fishery will never be the reason a species is over fished. We just don't catch the numbers that comm boats can.

I have also been saying this exact same thing for almost 30 yrs. Recreational anglers could never ever, ever cause a species to reach an over fished state. I pushed for no regs for recs on scup back in the 90's based on this very premise. Didn't go over very well ......

 

[george]

I If the ASMFC followed the science, like the councils and NMFS are required to, we wouldn't have these problems with the striped bass and blackfish populations.

I guess you actually agree 100% with my statement.

 

[george]

I have also been saying this exact same thing for almost 30 yrs. Recreational anglers could never ever, ever cause a species to reach an over fished state.

I still agree with that. Tog are a perfect example. The stock remained very healthy when only fished on hook and line, then came the proliferation of the pot fishery. As smart and majestic as they are, they are very susceptible to pots and it has taken its toll on that fishery.

 

[crabby]

I still agree with that. Tog are a perfect example. The stock remained very healthy when only fished on hook and line, then came the proliferation of the pot fishery. As smart and majestic as they are, they are very susceptible to pots and it has taken its toll on that fishery.

Especially in the sound. The PBs don't even stay with them. Not enough around to satisfy anglers. Lucky for them they have the scup.

 

[Roccus7]

Must respectfully disagree on comments that Commercial fishermen are only ones who can decimate a fishery' yes that usually the case when a fish is trawled or potted. However, in the case of stripers, their assigned quota is only ~1/3 of the rec catch. I'm never sure that the actual Rec catch data are very accurate as they're derived from models which are "fueled" by surveys with a very low sampling number; I have never been interviewed on bass, but get called at least 2X per year regarding tuna. On the other hand commercial numbers are taken from tag usage so those data are pretty hard. Since the last moratorium, there have been pretty strict limits on Comms, as well as Recs, so if anyone's to blame for the incoming "near collapse" it has to be NMFS for setting targets for Recs and Comms that were too high.

Every state gets a commercial allocation, but not all use it. The one that sticks in my craw was NJ which a few years ago took their commercial quota and provided them back to recs through a bonus tag system. Crap, if you outlaw commercial fishing, why don't you have the decency to allow that quota to remain unfilled??? I know, I know, it's New Jersey...

Bottom line for bass: Everyone, Comms and Recs, is going to have some pain if NMFS has the cajones to start slapping some tougher restrictions on bass.

 

[george]

Must respectfully disagree on comments that Commercial fishermen are only ones who can decimate a fishery' yes that usually the case when a fish is trawled or potted. However, in the case of stripers, their assigned quota is only ~1/3 of the rec catch. I'm never sure that the actual Rec catch data are very accurate as they're derived from models which are "fueled" by surveys with a very low sampling number; I have never been interviewed on bass, but get called at least 2X per year regarding tuna. On the other hand commercial numbers are taken from tag usage so those data are pretty hard. Since the last moratorium, there have been pretty strict limits on Comms, as well as Recs, so if anyone's to blame for the incoming "near collapse" it has to be NMFS for setting targets for Recs and Comms that were too high.

Every state gets a commercial allocation, but not all use it. The one that sticks in my craw was NJ which a few years ago took their commercial quota and provided them back to recs through a bonus tag system. Crap, if you outlaw commercial fishing, why don't you have the decency to allow that quota to remain unfilled??? I know, I know, it's New Jersey...

Bottom line for bass: Everyone, Comms and Recs, is going to have some pain if NMFS has the cajones to start slapping some tougher restrictions on bass.

There’s more going on in that fishery than over fishing. At least that’s how I see it. With that said, it’s indisputable that recs take more fish.

 

[MakoMike]

Depends what you mean by "recreational" fishing. Back when there were no draggers, no potters, nothing other than fishing either by rod & reel or hardline we still managed to wipe out our Atlantic Halibut fishery. Granted we are on the fringe of the halibut's natural range, but we still managed to wipe them out They still haven't recovered 100 years later!

 

[MakoMike]

We need to tout our economic and political strength when working to effect management decisions. Sadly these issues will always outweigh the actual science. We need to find common ground with the industry and influence the future of their business. Putting them in their own category will only make it harder to get anything done.

That's the part I don't agree with. "Our" economic and political strength may or may not be stronger than those on the other side of the question. But neither should have anything to do with the determination of the outcome.

 

[Roccus7]

Depends what you mean by "recreational" fishing. Back when there were no draggers, no potters, nothing other than fishing either by rod & reel or hardline we still managed to wipe out our Atlantic Halibut fishery. Granted we are on the fringe of the halibut's natural range, but we still managed to wipe them out They still haven't recovered 100 years later!

We are starting to see an increasing consistent halibut fishery in Maine. The regs are quite tight, both state and Fed, but a decent commercial "hook trawl" business has started to emerge and one can bet on being able to get fresh halibut at local fish houses during May and June. Recreational catches are very inconsistent, but they are being caught.

 

[MakoMike]

We are starting to see an increasing consistent halibut fishery in Maine. The regs are quite tight, both state and Fed, but a decent commercial "hook trawl" business has started to emerge and one can bet on being able to get fresh halibut at local fish houses during May and June. Recreational catches are very inconsistent, but they are being caught.

Yes I am well aware of that, we deal it it fairly often on the NEFMC RAP. There is a bit of controversy about the effect of the ME regs on the federal regs. Some on the fed side feel that the ME regs are inconsistent with the FMP, and they suggested a complete ban on recreational retention of any halibut. We managed to dodge that bullet at the time, but it could resurface at any time.

 

[Roccus7]

Yes I am well aware of that, we deal it it fairly often on the NEFMC RAP. There is a bit of controversy about the effect of the ME regs on the federal regs. Some on the fed side feel that the ME regs are inconsistent with the FMP, and they suggested a complete ban on recreational retention of any halibut. We managed to dodge that bullet at the time, but it could resurface at any time.

Quite honestly Mike, the Maine Regs are much ado about nothing, they're only good within territorial waters and I've yet to hear about any halibut coming up in those waters. All the folks catching halibut are doing so in Federal waters.

Now that being said, I do love the Maine commercial cod regs. There are some nice cod spots within 1 mile of the shore...

 

[MakoMike]

Quite honestly Mike, the Maine Regs are much ado about nothing, they're only good within territorial waters and I've yet to hear about any halibut coming up in those waters. All the folks catching halibut are doing so in Federal waters.

Now that being said, I do love the Maine commercial cod regs. There are some nice cod spots within 1 mile of the shore...

Maine claims that almost all of the halibut catch is coming from state waters. ME regs IIRC are 3 a day, fed regs is 1 a day, big difference when you're talking about such a rare fish.

 

[Roccus7]

Maine claims that almost all of the halibut catch is coming from state waters. ME regs IIRC are 3 a day, fed regs is 1 a day, big difference when you're talking about such a rare fish.

Have yet to hear of a single fish in State waters. Regardless Rec reg IS 1 fish a day, just like Fed Rec Reg, been that way for 9 years. Recs can only buy 5 tags per season with no additional ones and Maine Rec season is only 2 months, while Feds year round I think. Party boats are also limited to 1 fish per day so on the odd day that they actually catch 2 in one day, the last one goes back in the ocean.

Fish caught at Platts, Cashes, Phippenes, Matinic Ooze, Kettle Grounds, etc. These are places way, way out.

 

[crabby]

Must respectfully disagree on comments that Commercial fishermen are only ones who can decimate a fishery' yes that usually the case when a fish is trawled or potted. .

I said over fished. There are other factors to the decline of a fishery not related to fishing.

 

[MakoMike]

Have yet to hear of a single fish in State waters. Regardless Rec reg IS 1 fish a day, just like Fed Rec Reg, been that way for 9 years. Recs can only buy 5 tags per season with no additional ones and Maine Rec season is only 2 months, while Feds year round I think. Party boats are also limited to 1 fish per day so on the odd day that they actually catch 2 in one day, the last one goes back in the ocean.

Fish caught at Platts, Cashes, Phippenes, Matinic Ooze, Kettle Grounds, etc. These are places way, way out.

The issue isn't around recreational fishing, it's the commercial boats, that IIRC can keep three a day. I know where Phipps and cashes is, I fish them a least once a year, looking for Mr. Butt.

 

[george]

That's the part I don't agree with. "Our" economic and political strength may or may not be stronger than those on the other side of the question. But neither should have anything to do with the determination of the outcome.

I agree, but it does.

 

[MakoMike]

I agree, but it does.

Only at the ASMFC.