AFSMC Striper Meeting

[Roccus7]

I'll dump all the pertinent slides later, but the SSB is going down, almost perfectly matching your estimate Rich!! This is from the DRAFT assessment.

 

[Roccus7]

This is the scary slide, showing very few larger fish being caught either in the Chesapeake (Bay) or everywhere else (Ocean).

 

[Roccus7]

Here's another one that's crazy. It seems that Recreational Mortality is LARGER than Recreational Harvest, i.e. with less larger fish around, anglers cull through many fish before catching a keeper. My keeper to short ratio last season was ~ 150:1 so even at a ridiculously low value of 5% mortality rate, I killed 5 times the number of fish I kept. Move that rate to 20%, I killed 20 fish for every keeper.

 

[Roccus7]

A few more tables/graphs than the "Roccus Rant"...

 

[george]

Here's another one that's crazy. It seems that Recreational Mortality is LARGER than Recreational Harvest, i.e. with less larger fish around, anglers cull through many fish before catching a keeper. My keeper to short ratio last season was ~ 150:1 so even at a ridiculously low value of 5% mortality rate, I killed 5 times the number of fish I kept. Move that rate to 20%, I killed 20 fish for every keeper.



View attachment 1987

The numbers are the numbers, and more money is spent on regulating bass than any other fishery. But with that said rec mortality has always been a huge piece. Despite that the fishery grew consistently. I don’t buy into the theory that mortality is higher because it’s harder to find a keeper. I don’t know a single angler that’s bass fishing who stops fishing after catching a keeper. Who stops fishing after catching a big fish? I certainly don’t. I enjoy catch and release, and I enjoy eating one every once in a while. There’s something going on here with a lack of big fish, but that can’t be blamed on shorts that are released. I think Rich Troxler is onto something.

 

[Roccus7]

OK, here we go. I'll keep things short and identify facts, clearly state my opinions, and point out key committee comments.

1. The fact that recreational dead releases are greater than recreational harvest shows that increasing the size limit on a population of very young fish is not as effective as originally thought and down right detrimental to the fishery. It causes fishermen to keep fishing in hopes of a keeper, causing the death of many more fish. What fries me is that during this discussion no one on the committee mentioned the potential of a slot limit as a management tool!!??
   
   
2. In terms of commercial vs. recreational catches, the combined commercial harvest and dead releases of 10% of the total "removals" shows that the commercial side is less significant than most people think. I feel this would make any call of "stop the commercial fishing of striped bass" fall upon deaf ears, as it should based on these data.
   
   
3. The Spawning Stock Biomass (SSB) will not be met by the current regs which in fairness, was STUPIDLY (my thought) set at a 50% probability of being obtained from the shift to the 28" limit in 2016. Therefore the resource is overfished and steps must be taken to correct this. I love it, Fisheries Management by coin toss!!!
   
   
4. New statistical tools and models were used in this stock assessment so some committee members were trying to paint a case for this not being as dire as it seems because it was an apples to oranges evaluation. To them I would highlight the Female Spawning Stock Biomass and Catch Composition graphs which are not dependent on the models. Female SSB is dropping and the younger fish aren't getting through to be caught as they get older as evidence by the huge drop in the 2006 class catches in 2017 in the Ocean. Hell, just look at that "11 year old fish column", it seems that most fish don't get past their 10th birthday!!
   
   
5. The committee realizes something must be done, and quickly so they are trying to set up an implementation plan that would allow for a 2020 or 2021 (my notes are confused here) implementation date so the motion shown above is the first step with a due date for the May meeting. At that time they expect that the "draft" stock assessment will be finalized and they can begin to make plans. One person was all for seasonal restrictions and got that into the motion, but seriously??? If we're killing as many fish or a bit more than we keep when we release them, what good would that do if folks practice C&R during the "closed" season?
   
   
6. Other committee business:
   • They discussed the Block Island/Montauk EEZ Transit Zone issue. Their action item is to "compose a letter" to NOAA with nothing determined on their determination. Most felt that they needed to figure things out on bass proper and anything that would increase catches wasn't a good idea. The RI guy was moaning about this, saying it would effectively increase the take, LOL. Some were afraid that opening the Transit Zone could be the beginning of opening the EEZ. They decided they would "draft" a letter, but it wasn't agreed upon what the letter would say, but I'm thinking if the stock assessment stands, this one is dead.
     
     
   • MD came back with the success of their equivalency measures. These guys are great snake oil salesmen in that they promised 100% circle hook use in the bay when using bait for ALL fishing. After the committee bit on that proposal, MD finished the "bait and switch" saying that only live lining and fishing bait while chumming would need circle hooks, but folks just "fishing" with bait would be exempt. Bottom line is that there was just a bit more mortality than the "Zero Mortality" projected by their original proposal. Some committee members were very displeased with the bait and switch and I think any future equivalency proposals from MD will be met with great skepticism.
     
     
   • A NC rod and reel tagging program run by some state or ASFMC group has been an epic failure this year. The people involved are googans and can't catch fish. Anyone out there want to volunteer to help lead the blind here?

OK, that's it for now. I have a screenshot of most of the slides so if you want a set, get a hold of me with an email address...

 

[Roccus7]

The numbers are the numbers, and more money is spent on regulating bass than any other fishery. But with that said rec mortality has always been a huge piece. Despite that the fishery grew consistently. I don’t buy into the theory that mortality is higher because it’s harder to find a keeper. I don’t know a single angler that’s bass fishing who stops fishing after catching a keeper. Who stops fishing after catching a big fish? I certainly don’t. I enjoy catch and release, and I enjoy eating one every once in a while. There’s something going on here with a lack of big fish, but that can’t be blamed on shorts that are released. I think Rich Troxler is onto something.

Well here's an angler who does stop when he has a keeper or soon thereafter. When we had the slot in Maine and I had a good shot at bringing home dinner, many times I would actually go out to get one fish for that night's fish tacos. Now that we've got the seemingly impossible 28" limit here, being on the fish's northern fringe of migration, I usually fish till my arms fall off, or lightning strikes and I actually catch a keeper. The minute that tail hits the 28" line and I start it bleeding, I head for the barn.

Last year of the slot, 2015 my short to keeper ratio was 5:1 and I usually fished until I caught dinner so my total catch was 234 fish.

2017: I caught over 1000 stripers, but only 4 keepers.

2018: I caught over 500 stripers, but only 4 keepers.

Yes, the local seals, crabs and lobsters really enjoy the 28" limit!!

 

[Roccus7]

There’s something going on here with a lack of big fish, but that can’t be blamed on shorts that are released. I think Rich Troxler is onto something.

You know George, "M Word" was never mentioned. That could explain some things.

 

[pequa1]

Actually George, in those days far and few between, if I do catch a keeper surfcasting, I start the long trek back to the parking lot, wash it off with a milk jug of water and drive home. In all likelihood I caught a bunch of schoolies first anyway. (My second stop would be to buy a lottery ticket !) Boat fisherman probably do as you say, trying to cull for a larger one and thus endangering every one that's hooked, but lugging a keeper a mile back for the drive home ? Not me, (and not Roccus.)

 

[MakoMike]

Here's another one that's crazy. It seems that Recreational Mortality is LARGER than Recreational Harvest, i.e. with less larger fish around, anglers cull through many fish before catching a keeper. My keeper to short ratio last season was ~ 150:1 so even at a ridiculously low value of 5% mortality rate, I killed 5 times the number of fish I kept. Move that rate to 20%, I killed 20 fish for every keeper.

Think about it for a minute. That's true in every fishery where there are regulatory discards.

Just a few points: all of this is just speculation unless and until the saw/sarc report is issued and the stock assessment is official. IIRC there were two different methodologies used in the assessment and rumor has it that one would not be approved.

The ASMFC has no authority over any federal waters, including the so called Block Island transit zone. The decision about what to do about the proposal to open the transit zone to striped bass fishing will be made by NOAA/NMFS.

Seasonal closures are the single most effective measure used in fishery management to constrain the harvest.

 

[george]

Well here's an angler who does stop when he has a keeper or soon thereafter. When we had the slot in Maine and I had a good shot at bringing home dinner, many times I would actually go out to get one fish for that night's fish tacos. "

Not everyone has their boat in the yard and runs out for dinner. I'm envious of those who do though. I could be wrong, but I feel that most anglers are like myself. If I'm headed out in certain conditions that I'm confident there will be a good number of big fish, the last thing I'd do is catch a keeper and then go home. Sure I enjoy eating them, but I'm catching and releasing as long as the fish are there. If I plan to keep one that night it's always the first keeper no matter what the size.

Here's come the bass wars!

 

[Capt13]

Here's come the bass wars!

LOL ..... I'm going to see how long I can avoid chiming in !

 

[Scupper]

A simple first step , outlaw treble hooks ......
Circle hooks seem to less damage as well ..
A step further would be to use barbless hooks ..... Let the outrage begin ...........

 

[george]

A simple first step , outlaw treble hooks ......
Circle hooks seem to less damage as well ..
A step further would be to use barbless hooks ..... Let the outrage begin ...........

Some states have circle hook regs in place now. I've always opposed regulating what we fish with. What's next, no light line fishing because it puts too much stress on the fish? Or maybe no live bait? Are we talking treble hooks in bunker or on artificial lures? It's a long road that never ends.

 

[Roccus7]

Some states have circle hook regs in place now. I've always opposed regulating what we fish with. What's next, no light line fishing because it puts too much stress on the fish? Or maybe no live bait? Are we talking treble hooks in bunker or on artificial lures? It's a long road that never ends.

And some of those states, notably Maine, are considering getting rid of the circle hook requirement...

 

[george]

And some of those states, notably Maine, are considering getting rid of the circle hook requirement...

From what I can tell it doesn't seem to be reflected in the numbers as helping? I'm not saying it's not I'm just suggesting the numbers don't show it.

 

[Scupper]

Some states have circle hook regs in place now. I've always opposed regulating what we fish with. What's next, no light line fishing because it puts too much stress on the fish? Or maybe no live bait? Are we talking treble hooks in bunker or on artificial lures? It's a long road that never ends.

If it was up to me , all treble hook would be banned , way too much damage done to any fish that is being released .....
Really bothers me to see a fishes jaw ripped apart from treble hooks .......
Ripping the guts out of a short also bothers the heck out of me , circle hooks seem to reduce that ......
Some of the big time Bluefish jigging boats required the barbs on those Diamond Jigs to be pinched , not for the sake of the fish but to help the crew remove hooks from passangers .. Those Capts believed [ or didn't care ] that those 'barbless ' hooks did not reduce the catch ........
PS. I am not big on Gov regulations , sometimes common sense merits some rules .........

 

[george]

If it was up to me , all treble hook would be banned , way too much damage done to any fish that is being released .....
Really bothers me to see a fishes jaw ripped apart from treble hooks .......
Ripping the guts out of a short also bothers the heck out of me , circle hooks seem to reduce that ......
Some of the big time Bluefish jigging boats required the barbs on those Diamond Jigs to be pinched , not for the sake of the fish but to help the crew remove hooks from passangers .. Those Capts believed [ or didn't care ] that those 'barbless ' hooks did not reduce the catch ........
PS. I am not big on Gov regulations , sometimes common sense merits some rules .........

I get it, but once we open that door it will be never-ending.

 

[Roccus7]

Think about it for a minute. That's true in every fishery where there are regulatory discards. Understood, but when the size limit is set too high, more fish may die than are actually harvested, as these data suggest. This was not factored into their original 28" plan and shows poor planning! Unattainable sizes does not dissuade people from fishing and usually forces them to fish more often. How many shark folks are going out less now with the new mako limit???.

Slots are excellent tools, but it seems it's not in the ASFMC's vocabulary; they depend on states to bring up slots in a equivalency plan. This is a very parochial view, especially considering that the current data shows a dearth of larger fish. Doesn't take a PhD in fisheries management to figure out this a self-fulfilling Doomsday Strategy, just like going with a management plan with a 50% chance of success.

Just a few points: all of this is just speculation unless and until the saw/sarc report is issued and the stock assessment is official. IIRC there were two different methodologies used in the assessment and rumor has it that one would not be approved. Yes, but the statisticians were confident both would be used. Regardless dumping one didn't change things much so it's BOHICA time!!!

The ASMFC has no authority over any federal waters, including the so called Block Island transit zone. The decision about what to do about the proposal to open the transit zone to striped bass fishing will be made by NOAA/NMFS. Yes, they know they can only make a recommendation and NOAA has the decision right. They just couldn't figure out what their recommendation would be, LOL. RI was pretty adamant about opening up the Transit Zone, whether or not things are "officially" overfished.

Seasonal closures are the single most effective measure used in fishery management to constrain the harvest. States would have to set these based on local runs; A MD ocean August closure is a "non-event", just like a ME May closure would be. I doubt this could be done quickly, as the states will be going back and forth on this one.

See my comments above...

 

[Roccus7]

From what I can tell it doesn't seem to be reflected in the numbers as helping? I'm not saying it's not I'm just suggesting the numbers don't show it.

Maine is such a "pimple on the azz" of striped bass fishing we're only a rounding error of the total fishery. If we stopped all fishing up here, the numbers wouldn't change.