AFSMC Striper Meeting

[MakoMike]

And some of those states, notably Maine, are considering getting rid of the circle hook requirement...

And MA is thinking about imposing a circle hook requirement. I checked my crystal ball and I see a circle hook requirement in the ASMFC's future.

 

[MakoMike]

See my comments above...

Dom, Just a procedural point, when you put your reply in among the quotes you re replying to, it makes it very difficult to carry on a conversation. I can't easily quote anything you said that I might want to discuss further.

 

[MakoMike]

Understood, but when the size limit is set too high, more fish may die than are actually harvested, as these data suggest. This was not factored into their original 28" plan and shows poor planning! Unattainable sizes does not dissuade people from fishing and usually forces them to fish more often. How many shark folks are going out less now with the new mako limit???.

Slots are excellent tools, but it seems it's not in the ASFMC's vocabulary; they depend on states to bring up slots in a equivalency plan. This is a very parochial view, especially considering that the current data shows a dearth of larger fish. Doesn't take a PhD in fisheries management to figure out this a self-fulfilling Doomsday Strategy, just like going with a management plan with a 50% chance of success.

I would disagree with several of your assertions. 1) are you seriously going to argue that a 28 inch size limit is too high? using that logic we shouldn't have any size limits. Do you think that would reduce or increase the total mortality?

Unattainable sizes definitely does dissuade people from fishing. Just ask any tackle shop if the gradual decline in striped bass availability has affected their revenues, the unanimous answer will be yes. Sharking has virtually gone off a cliff with the new mako limits.

Slots are tools, whether they are "excellent" or not depends on the problem you're trying to solve. They do nothing to decrease overall mortality and in fact in certain fisheries, like summer flounder they can increase mortality. Outside of MD in the Chesapeake bay, there are no "equivalency" plans in the ASMFC's fishery management plan for striped bass. The FMP would have to be amended (a very lengthy process)before any kind of slot limit would be permissible.

50.1% probability is the standard that ASMFC uses, IOW more likely than not. It is based on the Case of NRDC vs Daley where the courts held that to be in compliance with the Magnesson Stevens Act FMPs must have a more likely than not probability of achieving their target. While it is arguable whether or not the MSA even applies to the ASMFC, that is the standard they choose to use.

 

[MakoMike]

Yes, but the statisticians were confident both would be used. Regardless dumping one didn't change things much so it's BOHICA time!!!

The "statisticians" have no say in the matter, it's totally up to the saw/sarc panel (which is made up of independent scientists) to determine is a stock assessment should be used or ignored for the purposes of fishery management. For example, that's why we did not have a stock assessment that could be used to manage black sea bass until the last stock assessment. There were plenty done before but none of them passed the saw/sarc standards.

 

[MakoMike]

States would have to set these based on local runs; A MD ocean August closure is a "non-event", just like a ME May closure would be. I doubt this could be done quickly, as the states will be going back and forth on this one.

Thank you Captain obvious! The issue is not what the states will do but rather what the ASMFC will require the states to do. If it was left up to the individual states to do something, then yes it would probably take forever. But the ASMFC can adopt a standard in one meeting. Again, keep in mind that MD has two different sets of regulations, one for the bay and one for the ocean. Are you seriously saying that there are no stupid bass caught in the ocean adjacencies to MD in the month of August? I would expect the Technical Committee to come up with something like "a x number of days closure during the period from June 15th to Sept. 15th."

 

[pequa1]

Outlaw bait. I never guthook with a lure.

 

[Roccus7]

I would disagree with several of your assertions. 1) are you seriously going to argue that a 28 inch size limit is too high? Absolutely for my area!! Do you think it's "appropriate" for my killing of 12 - 25 bass for each one I keep??? That's what the historical numbers say if I use a 10% mortality rate, which is lower than ASFMC uses. That's why Maine had a slot to begin with.

using that logic we shouldn't have any size limits. Do you think that would reduce or increase the total mortality? One keeper a day at any size, not that I'm advocating that, would reduce mortality. Hey, NY has a smaller size for fish above the GW Bridge, not that any of these fish in "The Heights" would ever swim down to check the Intrepid, and the MD/VA boys have a field day in the Chesapeake. Imagine the carnage if they were held to 28"

Unattainable sizes definitely does dissuade people from fishing. Just ask any tackle shop if the gradual decline in striped bass availability has affected their revenues, the unanimous answer will be yes. Sharking has virtually gone off a cliff with the new mako limits. So glad you opened Pandora's Box on this one. We're talking about sharks, which along with their cousins rays, are just about the ONLY finned thing that you can get a 100% sex identification on with a simple, and foolproof visual examination. What the brain dead NOAA folks should have done is found out at what length do males mature and have claspers and follow the lead of deer managers, setting the size limit there, but only allowing "Claspered Makos" to be taken. This one is priceless, statisticians who never saw a shark set a ludicrous ruling because their numbers said so without any regard to chondrichthyes anatomy or physiology.

Slots are tools, whether they are "excellent" or not depends on the problem you're trying to solve. They do nothing to decrease overall mortality and in fact in certain fisheries, like summer flounder they can increase mortality. Outside of MD in the Chesapeake bay, there are no "equivalency" plans in the ASMFC's fishery management plan for striped bass. The FMP would have to be amended (a very lengthy process)before any kind of slot limit would be permissible. Maine did have one, but since ASMFC didn't recognize any reduction in take because of the circle hooks and no more than 2 trebles per lure initiatives weren't didn't earn us any credit, they decided not to pursue it any longer. Once again, this is something they should come up with, but it does need to be regionally aligned.

50.1% probability is the standard that ASMFC uses, IOW more likely than not. It is based on the Case of NRDC vs Daley where the courts held that to be in compliance with the Magnesson Stevens Act FMPs must have a more likely than not probability of achieving their target. While it is arguable whether or not the MSA even applies to the ASMFC, that is the standard they choose to use. True enough. Someday one of the tree hugging groups will hit this one out of the park in court. That being said, would you bet your life's savings on a 50.1% chance of success???

Oppps, just saw your plea not to do this, but I see you figured out a work around

 

[Roccus7]

Outlaw bait. I never guthook with a lure.

Man I gill hook more than a few a year with a popper...

 

[MakoMike]

Oppps, just saw your plea not to do this, but I see you figured out a work around

Yeah, but it makes replying a real PITA, so this is the last time I'm going to do it. If you want to continue the conversation don't do that again.

 

[Roccus7]

Yeah, but it makes replying a real PITA, so this is the last time I'm going to do it. If you want to continue the conversation don't do that again.

Is that a threat or a promise???

 

[MakoMike]

Absolutely for my area!! Do you think it's "appropriate" for my killing of 12 - 25 bass for each one I keep??? That's what the historical numbers say if I use a 10% mortality rate, which is lower than ASFMC uses. That's why Maine had a slot to begin with.
One keeper a day at any size, not that I'm advocating that, would reduce mortality. Hey, NY has a smaller size for fish above the GW Bridge, not that any of these fish in "The Heights" would ever swim down to check the Intrepid, and the MD/VA boys have a field day in the Chesapeake. Imagine the carnage if they were held to 28"

What are you smoking? One fish a day at any size would DECREASE mortality???? Are you serious, it would send mortality through the roof! Think about it, the only way it wouldn't increase mortality would be if there was a 100% mortality rate on released fish. FYI the reason for the reduced size limit above the George Washington bridge is because there are male stripers up there, which typically never get any bigger than around 24 inches. Same thing in the Chesapeake, where ALL of the fish during the summer months are males which never get to be 28 inches.

 

[MakoMike]

Is that a threat or a promise???

both!

 

[MakoMike]

So glad you opened Pandora's Box on this one. We're talking about sharks, which along with their cousins rays, are just about the ONLY finned thing that you can get a 100% sex identification on with a simple, and foolproof visual examination. What the brain dead NOAA folks should have done is found out at what length do males mature and have claspers and follow the lead of deer managers, setting the size limit there, but only allowing "Claspered Makos" to be taken. This one is priceless, statisticians who never saw a shark set a ludicrous ruling because their numbers said so without any regard to chondrichthyes anatomy or physiology.

Apples and oranges. The increase in the mako size limits was mandated by ICATT.

 

[MakoMike]

Maine did have one, but since ASMFC didn't recognize any reduction in take because of the circle hooks and no more than 2 trebles per lure initiatives weren't didn't earn us any credit, they decided not to pursue it any longer. Once again, this is something they should come up with, but it does need to be regionally aligned.

We've been down this road before, what would you like an engraved thank you certificate? What kind of "credit" would you like, as I've explained to you before there is no quota for any state for recreational striped bass, so there is nothing fo the ASMFC to give to the state of ME for their conservation efforts. That's doesn't mean its a bad idea.

 

[MakoMike]

True enough. Someday one of the tree hugging groups will hit this one out of the park in court. That being said, would you bet your life's savings on a 50.1% chance of success???

I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen. To date, no one, not even the state of New York has even been able to get the ASMC into court. Every case that has been filed in any court against the ASMFC has been thrown out due to jurisdictional issues.

 

[Roccus7]

What are you smoking? One fish a day at any size would DECREASE mortality???? Are you serious, it would send mortality through the roof! Think about it, the only way it wouldn't increase mortality would be if there was a 100% mortality rate on released fish. YES!! If you're only allowed to keep 1 fish per day, and you would catch that fish, you'd catch your one and maybe fish for a few more, but not catching 125-250 fish before catching a keeper. You seem to ignore those hard data...

FYI the reason for the reduced size limit above the George Washington bridge is because there are male stripers up there, which typically never get any bigger than around 24 inches. Same thing in the Chesapeake, where ALL of the fish during the summer months are males which never get to be 28 inches. Gee never knew there was a "Males Only" gate below the GW bridge. I assume you have a study that shows this, that all 18" fish above the bridge are males and all below are females? Please feel free to cite that reference, as well as the one along the Chesapeake Bridge/Tunnel that forces all females to leave by a certain date.

Apples and oranges. The increase in the mako size limits was mandated by ICATT. So if ICAT is stupid we have to play nice and not question their stupidity??? In this case who's the bigger idiot the leader or the group that chooses to follow it without question?? I saw nothing about any "Sex Differentiation" push back. There was plenty of push back, but more emotional than scientific. International regulatory bodies tend to be much more receptive to hard scientific facts than US ones which always willing to abdicate cogent thought if there's a regulation allowing them to do that.

We've been down this road before, what would you like an engraved thank you certificate? What kind of "credit" would you like, as I've explained to you before there is no quota for any state for recreational striped bass, so there is nothing fo the ASMFC to give to the state of ME for their conservation efforts. That's doesn't mean its a bad idea. Guess you don't see the irony in the fact that ASMFC is now looking towards circle hooks, while the didn't cut Maine any slack by enacting it. If it's such a great idea, and it is, why were they so blasé about us enacting it. I hope Maine eliminates the regulation just to spite them.

I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen. To date, no one, not even the state of New York has even been able to get the ASMC into court. Every case that has been filed in any court against the ASMFC has been thrown out due to jurisdictional issues. Miscommunication here, I'm assuming it won't be ASFMC hauled in on this, but NOAA during some large challenge to the 50.1% rule, which would throw that precedent out the window. The huggers have "bigger fish" to fry than stripers so it will probably involve something like right whale measures.

Knew you wouldn't sit on your hands...

 

[MakoMike]

Knew you wouldn't sit on your hands...

Suffice it to say you are wrong on almost all of your assertions.

 

[george]

Actually, if you took the first fish and went home it absolutely would reduce mortality, But I don't think that what we're trying to accomplish here.

S

There’s something going on here with a lack of big fish, but that can’t be blamed on shorts that are released. I think Rich Troxler is onto something.

You know George, "M Word" was never mentioned. That could explain some things.

The M word is never mentioned.

 

[MakoMike]

Actually, if you took the first fish and went home it absolutely would reduce mortality, But I don't think that what we're trying to accomplish here.

Not for the C&R guys.

 

[george]

FYI the reason for the reduced size limit above the George Washington bridge is because there are male stripers up there, which typically never get any bigger than around 24 inches. Same thing in the Chesapeake, where ALL of the fish during the summer months are males which never get to be 28 inches.

I have to disagree here. ALL of the big striped bass caught in the river are north of the GW. They reduce the size limit so people don't have to eat high-pcb fish. And the Chesapeake has been feeding us that BS for years. They now have a spring trophy fishery that I believe has impacted the breeders. The only reason MD gets more fish is that they pay for much of the research on striped bass. Those are the hidden truths.