AFSMC Striper Meeting

[george]

If you want to read through it, there is some data in the 2013 stock assessment which you can find here. But I do think we are arguing over how many angles can fit on the head of a pin. My point is and was that there aren't very many striped bass in the Chesapeake during the summer that can even meet the current 28 inch size and if the ASMFC is going to raise the size limit (which I do support) there should be some sort of an accommodation for the guys fishing the the bay.

Maybe so, but what about the anglers in Maine? Shouldn't they have access to a few keepers also? These are migratory fish, they're now owned by the Chesapeake.

A bit off topic, but I was surprised to find that tagging studies have shown that ME fish are Chesapeake and not Hudson fish? Seems strange that Hudson fish stop in Rhode Island?

 

[MakoMike]

I can't speak for other states but that would have a zippo effect on C&R in NY. We're open from April 15 - to Dec 15. There aren't many anglers targeting them before or after. I guess you could limit the number of fish you're allowed to catch and release? I know it's unenforceable but so are many fisheries regs.

Maybe I wasn't crystal clear, what I am suggesting is that the ASMFC adopt a rule which would apply to all states, NY included, that would require the state to have a closed season when the fish are present in that state's waters and to prohibit C&R during the closed season. So, just for example, NY might have an open season from May 1st to Dec. 1st with an additional closed season for the month of July and no C&R permitted from Dec. 1 to April 30 and from June 30 to July 31st.

 

[Roccus7]

Maybe so, but what about the anglers in Maine? Shouldn't they have access to a few keepers also? These are migratory fish, they're now owned by the Chesapeake.

A bit off topic, but I was surprised to find that tagging studies have shown that ME fish are Chesapeake and not Hudson fish? Seems strange that Hudson fish stop in Rhode Island?

Thanks for the help oh Lord and Master!!! Being "beyond the Pale" on the Northern Frontier, the St. Lawrence Canadian fish don't visit my hood, We have few larger fish up here, they like to find big pods of bait to the south on Georges and in Cape Cod Bay to hang out for the summer. We are the "melting pot" of striped bass up here. I returned a tag a couple of years ago that was tagged in the Hudson by the Hudson River Foundation. Then again, the tag I returned last year was from a fish tagged in the Piscataqua River 6 weeks before I got it, an American Littoral Society tag, but who knows where it originated from?

Here's an interesting, but confounding fact. Back in the 80s, not sure exactly when, following removal of a major dam on the Kennebec River, Maine DEC transplanted a bunch of Hudson River fish to the Kennebec. This population is being very protected with strict rules in the Kennebec watershed and they rarely publish data on YOY results. That being said, IF you were to were to do a DNA analysis on any of these fish, or their progeny, they would register as "Hudson River" because there hasn't been enough time for genetic diversity. An otolith analysis would be able to differentiate them from native Hudson River fish.

 

[george]

That being said, IF you were to were to do a DNA analysis on any of these fish, or their progeny, they would register as "Hudson River" because there hasn't been enough time for genetic diversity. An otolith analysis would be able to differentiate them from native Hudson River fish.

Interesting. I wonder if the same can be said for the stripers in CA!

 

[Roccus7]

... no C&R permitted ... from June 30 to July 31st.

Not a very practical idea wouldn't you say Mike? How can you between someone fishing for bluefish instead of striped bass?

 

[MakoMike]

Maybe so, but what about the anglers in Maine? Shouldn't they have access to a few keepers also? These are migratory fish, they're now owned by the Chesapeake.

A bit off topic, but I was surprised to find that tagging studies have shown that ME fish are Chesapeake and not Hudson fish? Seems strange that Hudson fish stop in Rhode Island?

You can't extend a species natural range based on fairness. ME is non the northern edge of the striped bass' natural range, no matter what anyone does they won't have a striped bass fishery unless and until th striped bass biomass is huge again. They are no more "entitled" to catch striped bass than they are entitled to catch sea bass. What about the fishermen in SC, they catch the occasional Chesapeake bay striper too.

Not off topic at all. Did you see my comment that the 2013 stock assessment definitely included the Hudson river stock? Its been well documented via tagging studies that the females of the Chesapeake bay stock are the real nomads, ranging all up and down the east coast. I have seen references in several studies which say that the Hudson river fish (both sexes migrate) seldom wander more than 50 miles from the mouth of the Hudson. I do know of Hudson river fish that were caught in MA, but they seems to be outliers in the tagging studies.

Besides according to Dom who said

Here's an interesting, but confounding fact. Back in the 80s, not sure exactly when, following removal of a major dam on the Kennebec River, Maine DEC transplanted a bunch of Hudson River fish to the Kennebec. This population is being very protected with strict rules in the Kennebec watershed and they rarely publish data on YOY results. That being said, IF you were to were to do a DNA analysis on any of these fish, or their progeny, they would register as "Hudson River" because there hasn't been enough time for genetic diversity. An otolith analysis would be able to differentiate them from native Hudson River fish.

See , you don't have to worry about ME. they have their own fish that they aren't sharing with anyone else! :cool:

 

[Roccus7]

Interesting. I wonder if the same can be said for the stripers in CA!

Not sure if they have enough genetic variability yet... Genes may lie, sometimes Chesapeake fish might winter in NY Bight and come up to spawn with NY fish, but otolith contain the environmental conditions...

 

[MakoMike]

Interesting. I wonder if the same can be said for the stripers in CA!

Not that it makes a difference in this debate, but I thought the stripers transplanted out in CA came from the Chesapeake?

 

[MakoMike]

Not a very practical idea wouldn't you say Mike? How can you between someone fishing for bluefish instead of striped bass?

You have a point. Maybe shut down blue fishing as well? Given their current scarcity they could use the help too! How did they do it in ME when they had the circle hook requirement?

 

[Roccus7]

I have seen references in several studies which say that the Hudson river fish (both sexes migrate) seldom wander more than 50 miles from the mouth of the Hudson. I do know of Hudson river fish that were caught in MA, but they seems to be outliers in th tagging studies.

See my post above Mike, I caught a tagged Hudson River fish in 2016...

 

[Roccus7]

Not that it makes a difference in this debate, but I thought the stripers transplanted out in CA came from the Chesapeake?

They're actually "Jersey Shore" fish, from the Navesink and Shrewbury Rivers. Since they were 1-3" long it's doubtful they were either Hudson or Chesapeake fish, but native "Joisey" fish. This occured in 1879 & 1881 so it's probable that at that time these rivers had their own native populations.

 

[MakoMike]

See my post above Mike, I caught a tagged Hudson River fish in 2016...

Congrats, according to the science you caught a very rare fish!

 

[MakoMike]

They're actually "Jersey Shore" fish, from the Navesink and Shrewbury Rivers. Since they were 1-3" long it's doubtful they were either Hudson or Chesapeake fish, but native "Joisey" fish. This occured in 1879 & 1881 so it's probable that at that time these rivers had their own native populations.

I'm not sure, but I don't think the Navesink or Shrewsbury rivers have the necessary conditions for successful striped bass spawns. OTOH at that size there is no reason they couldn't be from the Hudson spawn.

 

[Roccus7]

Congrats, according to the science you caught a very rare fish!

And a "money" fish in that Hudson River Foundation gives you $10 for a returned tag, with monthly and yearly drawings for bigger amounts!!

How old are your studies you cite Mike? Here's a graph from the HRF website that shows returns. The Yellow - Orange dots are more recent years and there's a pot load more than 50 mi from the Hudson River estuary. Look at all the returns from Eastern LI Sound, the Cape and up the MA shore.

 

[MakoMike]

And a "money" fish in that Hudson River Foundation gives you $10 for a returned tag, with monthly and yearly drawings for bigger amounts!!

How old are your studies you cite Mike? Here's a graph from the HRF website that shows returns. The Yellow - Orange dots are more recent years and there's a pot load more than 50 mi from the Hudson River estuary. Look at all the returns from Eastern LI Sound, the Cape and up the MA shore.

I'm really not sure how old the studies are, I originally found the references in a USF&W synopsis and it would be a major PITA to go back and find it again. But keep in mind that when we talk about fish migrations we are talking about distance as the crow flies, not road miles. 50 Miles from the mouth of the Hudson would, as a practical matter take in all of Long Island Sound. I can't tell where the majority of the tag returns come from based on that graphic. But IMHO it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that the RI/MA border is about the cut off point.

 

[MakoMike]

This is what the ASMFC says happened at this meeting:

ATLANTIC STRIPED BASS MANAGEMENT BOARD (FEBRUARY 6, 2019)
Meeting Summary
The Striped Bass Management Board (Board) met to review preliminary findings from the 2018 Benchmark Stock Assessment. Unfortunately, due to the partial lapse in federal appropriations, the final assessment and peer-review panel reports were not available for this meeting. Board review of those reports will occur in May 2019 at the Commission’s Spring Meeting.
For this assessment, the statistical-catch-at-age (SCA) model currently used for management was extensively modified to allow the modeling of two biologically distinct stocks. However, based on conversations that occurred at the 66th Stock Assessment Workshop in November 2018, it is anticipated that the Stock Assessment Review Committee will not endorse the use of the two-stock model to serve as a basis for fishery management advice, and instead will recommend that the single- stock SCA model be used for management. Accordingly, the Board reviewed results of the single-stock SCA model which indicated that the stock was overfished and experiencing overfishing in 2017, the terminal year of the assessment. These results are not expected to change with the release of the final assessment and peer-review reports. Please refer to the meeting materials athttp://www.asmfc.org/home/2019-winter-meeting for more information regarding data usage, model configuration and diagnostics, model results, model projections, etc.
Following review, the Board discussed the need for adaptive management to end overfishing and increase female spawning stock biomass. The Board decided to wait to take management action (i.e., initiate the development of a plan amendment or addendum) until it can formally review and approve the final assessment and peer review panel reports for management use. In the interim, the Board requested additional information from the Technical Committee (TC) to better understand the extent of necessary action. Specifically, the TC was tasked with estimating levels of removals needed to reduce fishing mortality (F) to the F threshold and the F target, and to also provide an example recreational bag and size limit combination that would achieve those conditions on the coast and in the Chesapeake Bay. The TC will report back to the Board in May.
Next, the Board discussed providing comment to NOAA Fisheries regarding its proposal to consider lifting the ban on recreational fishing in the federal Block Island Sound Transit Zone. Again, since final assessment results are essential to the discussion and development of an informed recommendation,
12
the Board was unable to provide comment at this time. However, based on the preliminary assessment results, the Board decided to draft a letter to NOAA Fisheries opposing opening the transit zone and will review the letter at its next meeting following review of the final assessment reports. The Board will consider forwarding the letter to NOAA Fisheries at that time.
The Board also reviewed Maryland’s Conservation Equivalency (CE) Effectiveness Report on 2018 recreational measures for the Chesapeake Bay summer and fall fishery. Approved by the Board in February 2018, the primary objective of the CE measures are to reduce the number of dead discards in the fishery while maintaining the same level of overall removals. Using several outreach and education platforms, as well as collecting information from law enforcement and angler intercept data, Maryland concluded that implementation of the new regulations was successful; overall compliance with the regulations was high and overall removals were within the range of that calculated in the original CE proposal.
Lastly, the Board approved changes to Virginia’s striped bass spawning stock survey and tagging program. Specifically, the spawning stock pound net survey was eliminated and is now conducted via multi-panel anchor gill nets, and tagging is conducted through electrofishing.
For more information, please contact Max Appelman, Fishery Management Plan Coordinator, at
[email protected] or 703.842.0740.
Motions
Move to task the TC with providing the Board with a report that shows the reductions in harvest needed to reduce F to F threshold (0.24) and F target (0.197) and also providing one example of recreational bag and size limit combination (if necessary, seasonal restrictions) needed to achieve these conditions a) on the coast and b) in the Chesapeake Bay and report back to the Board in May.Motion made by Mr. Grout and seconded by Dr. Davis. Motion carries (15 in favor, 1 opposed).
Move to have staff compose a letter to NOAA Fisheries opposing opening the Federal Block Island Sound Transit Zone for Board review in May.
Motion made by Mr. Keliher and seconded by Mr. Kane. Motion carries (15 in favor, 1 abstention).
Move to approve changes to Virginia’s Striped Bass Monitoring Program.
Motion made by Mr. O’Reilly and seconded by Mr. Clark. Motion carries unanimously.

You can find the full winter meeting report here

 

[Roccus7]

I'm really not sure how old the studies are, I originally found the references in a USF&W synopsis and it would be a major PITA to go back and find it again. But keep in mind that when we talk about fish migrations we are talking about distance as the crow flies, not road miles. 50 Miles from the mouth of the Hudson would, as a practical matter take in all of Long Island Sound. I can't tell where the majority of the tag returns come from based on that graphic. But IMHO it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that the RI/MA border is about the cut off point.

A 50 mile radius of a circle with a center point of Columbus Circle goes right down the center of Pt. Jeff harbor so RI/MA is well past 50 statute miles, useless fact I remember from a Cold War scenario that put a 1 Megaton N-bomb in Columbus Circle. Got to be accurate, generalizations and poor data are a recurring problem and a plague in fisheries management. Regardless, this chart demonstrates there are many Hudson returns past the RI/MA border in recent years, suggesting that the old 50 Mile Rule of Thumb" has become questionable.

 

[MakoMike]

A 50 mile radius of a circle with a center point of Columbus Circle goes right down the center of Pt. Jeff harbor so RI/MA is well past 50 statute miles, useless fact I remember from a Cold War scenario that put a 1 Megaton N-bomb in Columbus Circle. Got to be accurate, generalizations and poor data are a recurring problem and a plague in fisheries management. Regardless, this chart demonstrates there are many Hudson returns past the RI/MA border in recent years, suggesting that the old 50 Mile Rule of Thumb" has become questionable.

Got to be accurate and you are using Columbus circle as a proxy for the mouth of the Hudson river? You have to be kidding me!

 

[george]

From what I can tell it was determined that overfishing is occurring. Most likely nothing will be happening this year. One point of interest is that according to the numbers, circle hooks actually accounted for higher mortality? Maybe they are better at catching fish?

 

[Roccus7]

Got to be accurate and you are using Columbus circle as a proxy for the mouth of the Hudson river? You have to be kidding me!

I was in error, it's a 40 mi radius from Columbus Circle which is pretty close in Longitude, to the river mouth so if is 40 miles from there, the RI./MA border is WAY PAST. That border stands to be 163 mi/145 nmi from the Verrazano Bridge. Still sticking to the accuracy of the 50 mile rule of thumb??