Caring for your Catch p1: on the water

buddha162 said:
Haha gaijin!

Must've had some chew to that fish...I know Koreans generally prefer very fresh, live to plate sashimi. Most Japanese operations will wait for rigor to dissipate...although nowadays most suppliers insist on destroying the spinal cord of any fish they sell. In theory this would skip the rigor process altogether, and it's something I want to experiment with this year.

You know what's a great single-serving flatfish sashimi species? Sundial!
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They are protected in NY.
 
Roccus7 said:
No chew, rigor mortis is a time-dependent biochemical event, not a neuro one so "pithing" wouldn't help. Regardless, we ate the fish within 20 minutes of its demise, long before any rigor would set in...
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I was wondering about that too, I know they use rigor as a timestamp to "age" fish...I guess what some people are claiming is that destroying the nerve bundle speeds up the aging process, or eliminate the need to age.

MakoMike said:
I have heard from Japanese sushi/sashimi chefs that most fish is better two or three days after being killed.
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There is a definite change in texture (and flavor for some fish) freshly dead vs 48 hours later. With fluke, I've found that freshly killed fish calls for paper thin slices; there is a crispiness to the texture that you lose after aging, but too thick and you're giving those jaw muscles a workout. Aged fish you can cut slightly thicker and play around with the texture you want.

None of this is to say I have any formal training or inside knowledge to the Japanese tradition...a lot of it is murky to me, and I daresay some of it is pointless as well (just like any method derived solely from "tradition").

All the more reason to do some science in 2019!
 
buddha162 said:
I was wondering about that too, I know they use rigor as a timestamp to "age" fish...I guess what some people are claiming is that destroying the nerve bundle speeds up the aging process, or eliminate the need to age.
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It started with tuna, where destroying the spinal cord was thought to be quicker way to stop all muscular activity. It had nothing to do with rigor mortis. Evidently it has spread to other species as well. The technique is even spelled out in some of the guides for fishermen intending to sell their catch for sushi/sashimi.
 
so, if bleeding out most fish including Bluefish makes for a better final product, why isnt then the commercial harvesters arent bleeding out their catch and in turn increasing the value of the taste and $$$... cellfish...
 
CELLFISH said:
so, if bleeding out most fish including Bluefish makes for a better final product, why isnt then the commercial harvesters arent bleeding out their catch and in turn increasing the value of the taste and $$$... cellfish...
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Sort answer is that some are. Its mainly done by fishermen who are catering to the high end of the market. Expensive restaurants, high end fishmongers, and the sushi trade. Sorta proves the old adage of "time is money."
 
CELLFISH said:
so, if bleeding out most fish including Bluefish makes for a better final product, why isnt then the commercial harvesters arent bleeding out their catch and in turn increasing the value of the taste and $$$... cellfish...
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And that's one of the main reasons top tier sushi chefs in the US import their fish from Japan. It's not that they don't think local species are tasty...it's that they have no control over how local fishermen treat their catch.

I was talking to a couple of sushi chefs in the city...they do want to start transitioning to more local species. For instance, in their opinion, our summer flounder is a superior fish to their olive flounder (they look almost identical, it's pretty uncanny), but they can't get consistent product from local comms. I see a niche market for hook and line fishermen here, maybe Mike can fill us in on details. NYC is a food capitol of the world after all, more sushi restaurants than you can shake a fist at...and more and more raw prep dishes on all sorts of menus.
 
buddha162 said:
And that's one of the main reasons top tier sushi chefs in the US import their fish from Japan. It's not that they don't think local species are tasty...it's that they have no control over how local fishermen treat their catch.

I was talking to a couple of sushi chefs in the city...they do want to start transitioning to more local species. For instance, in their opinion, our summer flounder is a superior fish to their olive flounder (they look almost identical, it's pretty uncanny), but they can't get consistent product from local comms. I see a niche market for hook and line fishermen here, maybe Mike can fill us in on details. NYC is a food capitol of the world after all, more sushi restaurants than you can shake a fist at...and more and more raw prep dishes on all sorts of menus.
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There are a whole bunch of problems to overcome before a fisherman can sell well cared for fish to people willing to pay for that level of care. One problem is that federally licensed commercial fishermen MUST sell their catch to federally licensed dealers. Therefore, people who are seeking superior product have to find a dealer who handles such product. Second is the NYC model for distributing seafood, almost all of the seafood sold in NY goes through the Fulton Market, where there are few, if any, dealers that cater to this limited segment. It's better in some other areas like MA, where most of the dealers will differentiate line caught groundfish from net caught ground fish. But it is gradually improving, as some of the dealers are seeing increased margins on these more carefully handled fish. Of course I'm talking about our more common species, like Fluke, flounder, scup and sea bass. Tuna has been subject to specialized handling requirements for donkey's years, no tuna buyer will buy mishandled fish. IMHO its just a question of time, money and demand, before some of the more enterprising dealers start to step in to feed this demand.

Having said that, it is my experience that, as a general matter, commercial fishermen treat their catch much better than the average recreational fisherman. A couple of examples; a commercial fisherman would never put a fluke on the ice, white side down, while most recreational fishermen just throw them into the coolers; commercial fishermen use flake ice, which keep the fish much colder than ice cubes, or blocks, or ice in milk containers. Cod fishermen will eviscerate their catch ASAP after it comes on board, recreational fishermen will rarely do that. There are lots of other examples.
 
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seems strange BLUEFISH arent prepped this way for market, what a Great Fish Bluefish, plentiful and few restrictions... if they could get a few extra $$$ for it /lb, Y not... Skates take alot of effort... cellfish...
.
 
CELLFISH said:
seems strange BLUEFISH arent prepped this way for market, what a Great Fish Bluefish, plentiful and few restrictions... if they could get a few extra $$$ for it /lb, Y not... Skates take alot of effort... cellfish...
.
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Most people don't like to eat bluefish, which is why it usually brings 20-30 cents a pound on the market. Gutting and bleeding it wouldn't raise the price enough to justify the effort. Skate wings are much more of a specialty product.
 
MakoMike said:
Most people don't like to eat bluefish, which is why it usually brings 20-30 cents a pound on the market. Gutting and bleeding it wouldn't raise the price enough to justify the effort. Skate wings are much more of a specialty product.
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It actually hit $1.75 - $2.00 / lb this past august.
 
MakoMike said:
There are a whole bunch of problems to overcome before a fisherman can sell well cared for fish to people willing to pay for that level of care. One problem is that federally licensed commercial fishermen MUST sell their catch to federally licensed dealers. Therefore, people who are seeking superior product have to find a dealer who handles such product. Second is the NYC model for distributing seafood, almost all of the seafood sold in NY goes through the Fulton Market, where there are few, if any, dealers that cater to this limited segment. It's better in some other areas like MA, where most of the dealers will differentiate line caught groundfish from net caught ground fish. But it is gradually improving, as some of the dealers are seeing increased margins on these more carefully handled fish. Of course I'm talking about our more common species, like Fluke, flounder, scup and sea bass. Tuna has been subject to specialized handling requirements for donkey's years, no tuna buyer will buy mishandled fish. IMHO its just a question of time, money and demand, before some of the more enterprising dealers start to step in to feed this demand.

Having said that, it is my experience that, as a general matter, commercial fishermen treat their catch much better than the average recreational fisherman. A couple of examples; a commercial fisherman would never put a fluke on the ice, white side down, while most recreational fishermen just throw them into the coolers; commercial fishermen use flake ice, which keep the fish much colder than ice cubes, or blocks, or ice in milk containers. Cod fishermen will eviscerate their catch ASAP after it comes on board, recreational fishermen will rarely do that. There are lots of other examples.
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Incredible.

What pin hooking fisheries are there in the NY/NJ area? Tog, fluke...bluefish? What about unregulated species like robins and skates? Do hook/line fish end up through the same dealer pipeline as the rest?

The pin hookers have to get together with chefs and work something out, choose an amenable dealer and hand him a fait accompli. The chefs can tell the fishermen exactly what they need. These guys have fish flown in 2-3 times a week, I'm sure they can make the effort worthwhile for local hook and line fishermen.
 
crabby said:
I saw it last season. When I looked just now there was nothing on them.
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I've read they are protected up in MA, but I wouldn't be sad if they are regulated in NY/NJ as well. I did a sundial catch/cook couple years ago...it was honestly one of the most delicious fish I've had locally, both raw and cooked. But I've heard stories of the bucket brigade stacking them up in NJ, which is a travesty.
 
buddha162 said:
Incredible.

What pin hooking fisheries are there in the NY/NJ area? Tog, fluke...bluefish? What about unregulated species like robins and skates? Do hook/line fish end up through the same dealer pipeline as the rest?

The pin hookers have to get together with chefs and work something out, choose an amenable dealer and hand him a fait accompli. The chefs can tell the fishermen exactly what they need. These guys have fish flown in 2-3 times a week, I'm sure they can make the effort worthwhile for local hook and line fishermen.
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Basically anything that can be caught on a hook and line and brings a decent price is pinhooked out on the east end. I think there are some Asian dealers that are starting to make a dent in this potential market. Probably the same guys that are supplying live fish to the Asian restaurants.
 

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