Does Anyone Care Any More?

[Roccus7]

The latest tog assessment in 2016 has both NY and NJ grossly overfishing the stock. The technical committee urges a 50% take reduction NOW, immediately, and what does the ASMFC decide? Continue with current regs until 2029.

So it really depends where you lay the blame in the process. By "external interests," at least in the case for blackfish...you must be referring to the for-hire and comm fleets exerting political pressure on the commission to keep status quo.

Those are some scary data! When's the next stock assessment? Is there a Comm vs Rec (which would include Charter and Party boat) Landings summary out there?

 

[richtrox]

Well it's funny because when I first started talking about the striped bass decline, probably around 8 or 9 years ago, I caught a lot of flack from a lot of people. Not that I'm happy to be right, because I'm not, but I think just about everybody, even the ASMFC, agrees that the fishery has been in decline for a while now. But there are still those who insist they know better. Alberto Knie had posted something on Facebook about the state of the bass stocks, and my old friend Capt. Jimmy Schneider waded into the conversation and claimed that striped bass were "the most over-populated fish on the planet". He said being a top fishermen in his area, he's had no problem finding bass. He then proceeded to say that anybody who bought into the decline bs was stupid, etc,....

I was very tempted to wade into the conversation but thought better of it. You simply can't argue with some people. I was going to tell Jimmy that data, science, math, these things are highly over-rated when compared to the personal experiences of a top fisherman like you and that he must be right. Them I was going to tell him that I was going to join the Flat Earthers in belief that the world was round. I mean, when I go to the beach and look out at the horizon, I don't see a curve, so the Earth most be flat, and all that science stuff is bs lol.

I can tell you some really funny stories about Jimmy when he was younger.

 

[Roccus7]

There's another facet that most folks can't get past Rich, and that's regional availability. I'm painfully cognizant that I'm on the Northern fringe of the migratory fish, painfully because from 2010 - 2012 I didn't catch a single bass, and only saw 3 bass during that time. The fish pretty much stayed Portland on south and I'd "commute" to Portsmouth to treat my fever. Now push the calendar forward just 2 years and I started catching over 100 fish a year, peaking in 2017 with over 1,000 and a bit of a drop in 2018 to 600ish fish, although I didn't fish as hard. So if I took a "back yard" position, I'd say "There are tons of bass around, what's the problem? I fish just about everyday and went from May 28 - October 5 without a skunking!!"

However the scientist in me doesn't allow this provincial attitude and I look at the stock assessments and every major spawning area's YOY survey, and yes there are some disconcerting trends there, as you've well documented. A fact about any industry is that if regulations are going to impact a person's livelihood, they understandably tend to be very vocal and militant about protecting that livelihood, and they band together to protect themselves. Conversely, those of us who enjoy something from a non-commercial perspective tend to demonstrate less activism, one factor being we have other issues, more pressing issues directly involved with our livelihood to battle over. It's basically a "pick your fight" scenario, and when it comes to stripers the Commercial and "For Hire" folks are far more vocal and organized then the rest of the Recreational crowd.

Although Charter and Party Boats are considered "Recreational" to fishery managers, many states, including NY are notorious for giving the "For Hire" fleet more liberal bag limits than true Recreational fishermen. I find this appalling from a classification perspective, but do understand the need for a person to provide for their family. I know that others have said this, but I do think it's time to reclassify fishing groups into "Commercial", "For Hire", and "Recreational", each with a very scientifically set of regulations that keep the fish in mind. Yes I know, asking for "scientifically set" is another pipe dream consider what the level of "best available science" our regulators accept.

 

[george]

Well it's funny because when I first started talking about the striped bass decline, probably around 8 or 9 years ago, I caught a lot of flack from a lot of people. Not that I'm happy to be right, because I'm not, but I think just about everybody, even the ASMFC, agrees that the fishery has been in decline for a while now. But there are still those who insist they know better. Alberto Knie had posted something on Facebook about the state of the bass stocks, and my old friend Capt. Jimmy Schneider waded into the conversation and claimed that striped bass were "the most over-populated fish on the planet". He said being a top fishermen in his area, he's had no problem finding bass. He then proceeded to say that anybody who bought into the decline bs was stupid, etc,....

I was very tempted to wade into the conversation but thought better of it. You simply can't argue with some people. I was going to tell Jimmy that data, science, math, these things are highly over-rated when compared to the personal experiences of a top fisherman like you and that he must be right. Them I was going to tell him that I was going to join the Flat Earthers in belief that the world was round. I mean, when I go to the beach and look out at the horizon, I don't see a curve, so the Earth most be flat, and all that science stuff is bs lol.

I can tell you some really funny stories about Jimmy when he was younger.

There are fewer people on this planet that I dislike more than Schneider. When my brother died of cancer he called me to say how happy he was to hear it and that I was next. Ironically I did end up with cancer but I beat it. I could go on, but the fact is the vast majority of captains are level headed and they're tired of being screwed, along with the recreational fisherman. For the record, nyangler.com will not be selling any ads whatsoever to the party charter or tackle businesses, so I don't want to hear that I'm a sellout. But over 30 years in this industry I have come to learn what it takes to own a part or character boat, and what it's like owning a tackle shop. These are hard-working people, whose job is to please recreational anglers.

No matter what way you twist or turn it, they carry recreational anglers and take fish the cleanest way possible - hook and line. By us arguing with them is like us fighting amongst ourselves. I'm on a boat for hire at least 10 times a year. If I catch something that I can keep, then it's mine. They're not selling it. Hell, they can't even keep a fish when on charter?

Do we dislike them because they asked for a 2nd fish with striped bass? Fact is that fish was approved for all anglers at the time. They aren't getting special bag or size limits, they can only take what ASMFC allows.

I'm not sure how it is that this many people, that I like and respect in this industry don't see that aligning ourselves with the sport fishing industry is necessary if we are to have any say in how our fisheries are managed. It's all about the money, and that all starts in your local tackle shop. We talk a lot about how much we contribute to the local economy. Taking out the money spent on these boats and in your tackle shop, along with all of the jobs that we brag about, changes everything. Kinda puts them in the driver's seat actually.

We need to be united, rec industry and rec anglers. It's the only chance we have.

 

[george]

I know that others have said this, but I do think it's time to reclassify fishing groups into "Commercial", "For Hire", and "Recreational",.

I personally couldn't Think of a worse scenario. Sorry Roccus, For hire is nothing more than an uber for many anglers that can't afford a boat. We have enough going against us now.

 

[Capt13]

George ..... we have a long history of both agreeing and disagreeing on management issues, going back at least 28 years. I like the uber comparison, but I agree with Dom. I have worn all three hats over the years (rec, for hire and comm) and served time as a recreational adviser on the asmfc.

I believe the interests of the for hire industry are truly different than those of the recreational angler. I remember vividly the argument made by Captain Al at a meeting in which the proposal to reduce the bag limit of fluke by a drastic amount was being discussed. I don't remember where we were meeting or the exact numbers ...... what I remember like it was yesterday was his comment regarding what puts people on a head boat. He said that most days a patron would never be able to put , for example, 30-40 fish in his cooler. It is the hope that he will be aboard on the day when that occurs ...... where fish are flying over the rail and he leaves with his cooler full. That's what keeps him coming back. By taking away that hope ........ that no matter how good the fishing is that day, he can only keep 4 fish, would be detrimental to his business.
I was very young and new to the industry and remember thinking at times, these old school PB captains needed to change their way of thinking. I did express my opinion occasionally and remember being looked at like I was crazy. For the most part you and I were on the same page back then.
After being involved for what is basically a lifetime, I strongly believe more can be accomplished for the recreational fishing community with out including the for hire industry.

 

[Capt13]

I just want to add ....... I do agree with what you said about the patrons. They are recreational fisherman and to allow the for hire industry special exception in regard to the regs size and bag limits is wrong. It would be great to have a united front, but ultimately, the for hire industry is only concerned about putting people at the rail .........

 

[Roccus7]

I personally couldn't Think of a worse scenario. Sorry Roccus, For hire is nothing more than an uber for many anglers that can't afford a boat. We have enough going against us now.

I respectfully submit we'll have to agree to disagree on this on until the schism in the For Hire sector between conservation-minded Captains like yourself and the "Fill The Cooler" Captains can be repaired. Until this happens, they'll never be enough concordance within the "Recreational" classification to get forward-thinking fishery management of a species, instead of letting things drop off the edge of a cliff, necessitating last minute, drastic measures.

 

[george]

I respectfully submit we'll have to agree to disagree on this on until the schism in the For Hire sector between conservation-minded Captains like yourself and the "Fill The Cooler" Captains can be repaired. Until this happens, they'll never be enough concordance within the "Recreational" classification to get forward-thinking fishery management of a species, instead of letting things drop off the edge of a cliff, necessitating last minute, drastic measures.

I fully understand your position, and you too have seen it all. Remember fill the cooler captains, are on;y asking for what their customers want. I have seen many forward thinking captains that encourage their fares not to keep a limit. I’ve seen many captains force anglers to release spawning tog back in the spring tog fishery days. It concerns me is that rec anglers spend their energy on this, when no one can tell us how many fish pots are set or who owns them. What is worse for the fishery, rec anglers keeping a few extra fish that were caught on hook and line over a 45 day seadon, or pots killing fish all day everyday?

 

[george]

George ..... we have a long history of both agreeing and disagreeing on management issues, going back at least 28 years. I like the uber comparison, but I agree with Dom. I have worn all three hats over the years (rec, for hire and comm) and served time as a recreational adviser on the asmfc.

I believe the interests of the for hire industry are truly different than those of the recreational angler. I remember vividly the argument made by Captain Al at a meeting in which the proposal to reduce the bag limit of fluke by a drastic amount was being discussed. I don't remember where we were meeting or the exact numbers ...... what I remember like it was yesterday was his comment regarding what puts people on a head boat. He said that most days a patron would never be able to put , for example, 30-40 fish in his cooler. It is the hope that he will be aboard on the day when that occurs ...... where fish are flying over the rail and he leaves with his cooler full. That's what keeps him coming back. By taking away that hope ........ that no matter how good the fishing is that day, he can only keep 4 fish, would be detrimental to his business.
I was very young and new to the industry and remember thinking at times, these old school PB captains needed to change their way of thinking. I did express my opinion occasionally and remember being looked at like I was crazy. For the most part you and I were on the same page back then.
After being involved for what is basically a lifetime, I strongly believe more can be accomplished for the recreational fishing community with out including the for hire industry.

We are on the same page when it comes to the fishery, and the mindset of today’s captain has changed drastically from back in the day. At least that’s how I see it.

 

[Roccus7]

I fully understand your position, and you too have seen it all. Remember fill the cooler captains, are on;y asking for what their customers want. I have seen many forward thinking captains that encourage their fares not to keep a limit. I’ve seen many captains force anglers to release spawning tog back in the spring tog fishery days. It concerns me is that rec anglers spend their energy on this, when no one can tell us how many fish pots are set or who owns them. What is worse for the fishery, rec anglers keeping a few extra fish that were caught on hook and line over a 45 day seadon, or pots killing fish all day everyday?

I'm coming at it from a 30,000 ft perspective on all fisheries, not just the tog pot issue, something all of us agree on. Maybe this becomes the cause that unites things on all issues as we descend on DEC and raise hell.

 

[george]

George ..... we have a long history of both agreeing and disagreeing on management issues, going back at least 28 years. I like the uber comparison, but I agree with Dom. I have worn all three hats over the years (rec, for hire and comm) and served time as a recreational adviser on the asmfc.

I believe the interests of the for hire industry are truly different than those of the recreational angler. I remember vividly the argument made by Captain Al at a meeting in which the proposal to reduce the bag limit of fluke by a drastic amount was being discussed. I don't remember where we were meeting or the exact numbers ...... what I remember like it was yesterday was his comment regarding what puts people on a head boat. He said that most days a patron would never be able to put , for example, 30-40 fish in his cooler. It is the hope that he will be aboard on the day when that occurs ...... where fish are flying over the rail and he leaves with his cooler full. That's what keeps him coming back. By taking away that hope ........ that no matter how good the fishing is that day, he can only keep 4 fish, would be detrimental to his business.
I was very young and new to the industry and remember thinking at times, these old school PB captains needed to change their way of thinking. I did express my opinion occasionally and remember being looked at like I was crazy. For the most part you and I were on the same page back then.
After being involved for what is basically a lifetime,

There's nothing wrong when people disagree, as long as it's kept civil and we respect the views of others. I was at a few meetings back in the day like you described above. But that was such a different time. I remember my dad renting a boat with a 5-hp tiller when the gas dock was in the Nissey. We would get into the sound and literally fish buckets with flounder. There were enough mackerel around to sink the boat. We would sit in front of the mansion, no electronics, and bail tog all day. Sadly many of those fish ended up in the trash. But that was the mindset of Capt Al's customers in those days. Anglers acted like there was an endless supply of fish. We all know better now, and that mindset has changed drastically in the past 5-10 years, but Capt Al was in no position to change things.

 

[george]

.
After being involved for what is basically a lifetime, I strongly believe more can be accomplished for the recreational fishing community with out including the for hire industry.

This quote scares me. Remember I'm looking through Fisheries Management glasses right now. And I'm not talking about some MRAC meeting or one of ASMFC's educational shows/hearings. I'm thinking about sitting at a table with a duly elected law maker - not regulators like a DEC hearing. As an example of the difference - we managed to make it a law that coms can keep 25 tog a trip. All of the screaming and yelling in the world can't change that unless you find an elected official to take it on. When we were at that table we had the support of the party and charter boats. Few if any had gotten into the pot fishery yet, so 25 was fair and we passed legislation. There was little pushback as all parties agreed it was fair. We showed then we had our shit together and acted like gentlemen. If we had the industry in disagreement chances are that law would never have passed. It took many meetings to get it the point we did, and we had overwhelming support from the NYFTTA and the boat for hire sector and that meant a lot to these elected officials. The last thing they want to see is rec anglers disagreeing with other rec anglers. That will kill any bill on the spot.

 

[Capt13]

The tog issue regarding the traps and comms brought the two user groups together against what both felt was a common enemy. I believe the motivation of the for hire industry when it comes to management issues is very different then the recs. George, I admire your tenacity and devotion to the fisheries, but my opinion is they (for hire) should be treated as a separate user group going forward. That doesn't mean the two groups shouldn't support each other when they are on the same page, but I don't think that's going to be the case very often. Fighting for management decisions because they affect your lively hood is way different than fighting for decisions that are going to affect your hobby/pastime.

 

[Capt13]

.......The last thing they want to see is rec anglers disagreeing with other rec anglers. That will kill any bill on the spot.

it wouldn't be recs against recs ....... it would be recs against business owners.

 

[Scupper]

Party Boat Business has been decimated . Gambling / Internet / Increased regs have put a hurting on many ports ................
How many retired guys now go to Foxwoods instead of a day out on the water ?

 

[george]

it wouldn't be recs against recs ....... it would be recs against business owners.

Let's just agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Capt13]

Let's just agree to disagree on this one.

You got it ......

 

[buddha162]

Those are some scary data! When's the next stock assessment? Is there a Comm vs Rec (which would include Charter and Party boat) Landings summary out there?

I looked but can't find the breakdown. Problem with tog esp in LIS...the live potting market is largely dark. How easy is it for someone to break the rules? And when someone is caught the fines are a slap on the wrist...

I've read some talk about a tagging system for live tog, that would be a good thing but I'd like to see the live trade banned altogether. And fwiw, being of Asian descent...I know it's a cultural norm for many Asian communities to prize live fish. As a chef, however, I can tell you that there is no benefit to keeping a stressed out fish in a tank, butchering it minutes before cooking: skipping the important steps of bleeding and letting the fish pass through rigor.

That tog is as tough a species as they are, is both a blessing (from a catch/release standpoint) and a curse (easy to keep alive). Such an intelligent, noble fish should not be stacked 20 deep in a glass tank; the big ones should be gently released, and the smaller keepers regulated to sustainable levels.

Sorry for the tangential rant...I started togging fairly late in life, and for whatever reason I've developed an affinity for these fish. They are amazing creatures, and with each passing season I find it more and more difficult to kill even the smaller keepers

 

[buddha162]

For the record, nyangler.com will not be selling any ads whatsoever to the party charter or tackle businesses

George, I'm very happy to hear that. Not because I am intrinsically opposed to "rec industry" POV, but because we already have a forum in NJ that basically functions as a mouthpiece for the party/charter lobby. They may ferry rec anglers to the fishing grounds, but they profit off the resource in a way that pure rec anglers do not. But there is a way to better align themselves to the conservation-minded rec angler.

My $0.02: there has to be a paradigm shift among the northeast charter/party boat captains. The assumption that patrons will only come out to fish if they can fill their coolers is false. Doubly so if the stock of any species is dwindling. If the fishing is bad, it doesn't matter what the limits are, and by all indications several of our target species are in dire straights.

Striped bass is an easy case to make. They are one of the prettiest fish around, they grow big and fight hard. The large breeders should be considered game fish, worth 10x more alive than dead. Mates and captains can mount gopros and film clients fighting, landing, and releasing their trophies. Cellphone cameras take great photos these days, and these pictures/film footage can be part of the charter package. Dock shots of dead bass are a thing of the past...

and this change in zeitgeist ought to start with the charter/party boat captains. They should explain to their patrons (and online, in social media) how valuable a resource these fish are, the benefits to eating lower in the food chain, that large fish have more PCBs than smaller fish, and how great a joy it is to release a 30, 40lb striper and see them reach 50, maybe to be caught and released again.

Sadly, this is not the attitude of most captains who voice their opinions on fisheries management. Claiming that the bass are not in trouble...being able to say that with a straight face, imo strips those captains of all credibility. They are not on my side as a rec angler, they are in it for themselves, and they will gladly kill the last fish swimming if regulations were up to them.