AFSMC Striper Meeting

I was in error, it's a 40 mi radius from Columbus Circle which is pretty close in Longitude, to the river mouth so if is 40 miles from there, the RI./MA border is WAY PAST. That border stands to be 163 mi/145 nmi from the Verrazano Bridge. Still sticking to the accuracy of the 50 mile rule of thumb??

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I'm not going to get into a pissing match over this, as I said before I think if you defined the eastern border of the range as being RI you wouldn't be far off. Defining the "mouth of the Hudson river" as being at the longitude of Columbus circle seems to me to be sheer sophistry. No wildlife, be it terrestrial or aquatic, restricts itself to such borders. But I guess the bigger question I have for you, given that you are bringing such extreme definitions to this party, is what difference does it make if the Hudson fish migrate 50 miles or 150 miles?
 
I'm not going to get into a pissing match over this, as I said before I think if you defined the eastern border of the range as being RI you wouldn't be far off. Defining the "mouth of the Hudson river" as being at the longitude of Columbus circle seems to me to be sheer sophistry. No wildlife, be it terrestrial or aquatic, restricts itself to such borders. But I guess the bigger question I have for you, given that you are bringing such extreme definitions to this party, is what difference does it make if the Hudson fish migrate 50 miles or 150 miles?

No difference at all. YOU commented that I caught a very rare fish here in Maine since according to YOUR information, not many Hudson River fish go further than 50 miles from the river mouth. I thought that was true, but when I checked how much the HRF paid for tag returns, I got that tag return distribution map. That map from HRF showed YOUR information assertion to be inaccurate in that there are many returns past the RI/MA line, especially in the past 10 or so years and these returns went as far up the Maine coast as Bar Harbor. I knew none of this information and happened on it accidentally, but now I realize the Hudson fish migrate up the entire coast.

No pissing contest, you made an inaccurate statement and continued to try to defend it. Want to admit to learning something new or do you want to keep to the 50 mile or RI/MA rule of thumb in the face of data that shows it to be inaccurate? Since RI/MA is about 150 mi from mouth of the Hudson, is it possible that you remembered 50 miles instead of the 150 miles that your sources stated???
 
No difference at all. YOU commented that I caught a very rare fish here in Maine since according to YOUR information, not many Hudson River fish go further than 50 miles from the river mouth. I thought that was true, but when I checked how much the HRF paid for tag returns, I got that tag return distribution map. That map from HRF showed YOUR information assertion to be inaccurate in that there are many returns past the RI/MA line, especially in the past 10 or so years and these returns went as far up the Maine coast as Bar Harbor. I knew none of this information and happened on it accidentally, but now I realize the Hudson fish migrate up the entire coast.

No pissing contest, you made an inaccurate statement and continued to try to defend it. Want to admit to learning something new or do you want to keep to the 50 mile or RI/MA rule of thumb in the face of data that shows it to be inaccurate? Since RI/MA is about 150 mi from mouth of the Hudson, is it possible that you remembered 50 miles instead of the 150 miles that your sources stated???

I could go back and find the document that cited the studies that said that Hudson river fish migrate approximately 50 miles from the mouth of the Hudson river. But why would I do that, given the fact that it has absolutely no impact on the subject we are discussing. If you want to belive that Hudson river fish routinely migrate to ME, feel free to delude yourself. The "scientist" in you is not permitting you to be imprecise enough to make sense out of fisheries science. This isn't an area where two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen will always make water. Let me nw how many of those Hudson fish you catch next year.
 
The "scientist" in you is not permitting you to be imprecise enough to make sense out of fisheries science. This isn't an area where two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen will always make water. Let me nw how many of those Hudson fish you catch next year.

SMH, such a sorry comment, but I guess that's all you got. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This quote is the epitome of what's wrong with Fisheries Science; it tries to avoid or cheat on basic scientific principles. Additionally there seems to be a huge resistance for actually moving away from that parochial mentality because the results might fly in the face of long-held hopes and beliefs. Hopes and beliefs is NOT a way to manage fisheries.

BTW, the head Striped Bass scientists at Maine DMR told me that most of the fish along Maine's Midcoast are Hudson River fish, but I cannot verify it because there are no published studies. Therefore it's a moot point, but that would be a fine observation for your version of "science". You can also add to that the 22 lb MALE fish I caught back in 1976, but I have no necropsy photos that would prove this, so it doesn't count either.

But you go ahead with the "No Females Allowed June - September" signs you claim are installed under the GW Bridge and along the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel, you'll have to make sure there's a "No Hudson River Fish Allowed Past This Point" signs from Bridgeport south through Islip if you're keeping to your 50 mi limitation (that's actually longer, but I needed some larger cities) or if you want the 160ish mile limit, have that sign installed along the coast at the RI/MA border. These items should help your fantasy land become reality...
 
From Fissues.org:

The Striped Bass Board met Wednesday to discuss the 2018 “preliminary” benchmark stock assessment. Such assessment hasn’t yet been finalized due to the Government shutdown.

As most of us already knew, the new assessment makes it very clear that the striped bass stock is “overfished” and “overfishing” is occurring. Based on the most recent and best-available science, the female spawning stock biomass is below (well below, in this case) the abundance level that defines a healthy and fully-rebuilt stock; the current fishing mortality rate is also too high to maintain the stock at such a healthy level of abundance.

That’s not terribly surprising to those of us who have witnessed a steady, on-the-water decline in the striped bass population over the last decade.

There was some discussion about whether the spawning stock biomass reference points were set too high, but in the end, there was wide agreement that all the “overfished” and “overfishing” management “triggers” were exceeded, and that something needed to be done.

A motion, which passed with only one dissenting vote, tasking ASMFC staff (the Technical Committee) with providing the Striped Bass Board, at its May meeting, with the reductions in harvest needed to reduce fishing mortality and end overfishing, and also with at least one example of a combination of size limits, bag limits and/or seasons (for both the coastal fishery and the fishery in the Chesapeake Bay) that would achieve such reduction.

I should note here that nothing in the motion actually addresses rebuilding, but just what it would take to get fishing mortality back on track. Actually rebuilding the stock may take more constraining measures.

While we certainly would have liked to have seen the Striped Bass Board initiate an Addendum that would have ended overfishing and started the striped bass back stock on the road to recovery, because the results of the stock assessment are still “preliminary” – and we should be clear here that they are not expected to change – that wasn’t possible.

We should also be clear that there is no chance that any new management measures will be put in place this year. Even if the Striped Bass Board decided to take emergency action in May after it had received the final stock assessment, management measures couldn’t be finalized until the fall; thus, regulations couldn’t be implemented until 2020.

All that said, such work by the technical committee should set up the basic framework for an Addendum, which could and hopefully will be initiated at the May meeting.

The addendum process generally takes two Commission meetings to complete, although it could and often does take longer. Assuming an addendum is initiated in May, final action could take place in October, with regulations implemented for the 2020 fishing season. Even if such action was delayed to the February meeting, we would still likely see regulations in place for 2020.

However, at this point, it is anything but certain that will happen. There are clearly some Commissioners who seek to take striped bass management in a different direction. Such Commissioners, who are primarily from Maryland and Delaware, expressed interest in developing a full Amendment to the management plan, which could adopt less conservative fishing mortality and spawning stock biomass reference points, change the goals and objectives of the plan to favor higher harvest levels, and amend the triggers for management action.

The intent is to lower the standards that define a healthy striped bass stock, an effort they try to justify with the baseless argument that the current spawning stock biomass target is too difficult to achieve. Such lowered standards would place the long-term health of the spawning stock at additional risk; since that is contrary to the current objective of the management plan, it would require a new plan amendment to put them in place. That would take a minimum of two years to prepare.

That, in itself, poses a problem. Currently, Amendment 6 to the Striped Bass Fishery Management plan is pretty clear that overfishing needs to be addressed within a year.

And so the battle lines are drawn. Where this will shake out is anyone’s guess. It will probably come down to a couple of votes, with the northern states (Maine to New York) pushing for the addendum process and ending overfishing in the 2020 fishing year, while some states south of that push for an Amendment that would not only delay badly needed conservation action, but could also significantly alter the science-based reference points currently used to manage the stock, lowering the bar for how ASMFC should define a “healthy” striped bass stock. And THAT would be bad, for all of us.

Perhaps it’s naive, but I am confident that reason and common sense will win this one. Stay tuned. Because once an Addendum or Amendment is initiated, there will be hearings and other opportunities for public input. We’ll make sure you know the where and when on those.

The EEZ and the Block Island Transit Zone

For context on this, see Straight Talk on the EEZ. The greatly simplified version is that the Feds are asking for advice from the Striped Bass Board on whether or not a piece of federal water north and west of Block Island, Rhode Island should be opened up to striped bass fishing (Note: federal waters have been closed to striped bass fishing for over 30 years). At its October 2018 meeting, the Striped Bass Board delayed providing such advice until after the results of the 2018 Striped Bass Benchmark Stock Assessment were released.

At this week’s meeting, Board members were in general agreement that any such opening would increase fishing mortality and would thus be unwise given the conclusions presented in the new stock assessment. Thus, in a nearly unanimous vote, the Board agreed to task staff with drafting a letter expressing ASMFC’s opposition to opening the Transit Zone to striped bass fishing, which letter shall be reviewed, and hopefully approved at the May Board Meeting, after a final version of the stock assessment has been made available for Board review.

Maryland CircleHooks

It’s also worth noting that the Striped Bass Board reviewed a report on the effectiveness of Maryland’s new circle hook regulations.

The Striped Bass Board permitted Maryland to reduce its minimum size from a 20 to 19-inch fish in 2018, in order to placate a charter boat industry that wanted to kill smaller fish; in exchange for requiring that in-line circle hooks be used for most bait fishing for striped bass.

The combined changes were deemed to have “conservation equivalency” with Maryland’s previous regulations, based on a state study that claimed that the use of circle hooks would substantially reduce the number of striped bass that die after being released by recreational fishermen.

Given that the new stock assessment found that 48 percent of all striped bass fishing mortality was caused by recreational discards, any such effort to reduce discard mortality has important implications for the health of the stock. While Maryland’s conservation-equivalent regulations were to remain in place for both the 2018 and 2019 seasons, the Striped Bass Board required that Maryland provide a report on their performance at the Board’s February 2019 meeting.

The report revealed that about 90 percent of Maryland striped bass anglers complied with the circle hook rule; even so, there was no gain in overall fishing mortality; it is likely that overall mortality increased by about 6percent morethen would have been killed if Maryland had stayed at a 20” minimum size with no circle-hook requirement. Maryland will continue such a circle hook requirement for the 2019 fishing season and report back next year.

What does this mean for anglers elsewhere on the coast? A coastwide circle-hook requirement could possibly be used to reduce recreational discard mortality, and Maryland might, to some extent, be validating that approach, although there are a host of related issues that could impact its effectiveness, which we don’t have the space to get into here.

Regardless, it should be something we all keep in mind going forward, as one of the big takeaways from this meeting is that recreational discards are significant. And managers seem to really want it addressed.
 
SMH, such a sorry comment, but I guess that's all you got. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This quote is the epitome of what's wrong with Fisheries Science; it tries to avoid or cheat on basic scientific principles. Additionally there seems to be a huge resistance for actually moving away from that parochial mentality because the results might fly in the face of long-held hopes and beliefs. Hopes and beliefs is NOT a way to manage fisheries.

BTW, the head Striped Bass scientists at Maine DMR told me that most of the fish along Maine's Midcoast are Hudson River fish, but I cannot verify it because there are no published studies. Therefore it's a moot point, but that would be a fine observation for your version of "science". You can also add to that the 22 lb MALE fish I caught back in 1976, but I have no necropsy photos that would prove this, so it doesn't count either.

But you go ahead with the "No Females Allowed June - September" signs you claim are installed under the GW Bridge and along the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel, you'll have to make sure there's a "No Hudson River Fish Allowed Past This Point" signs from Bridgeport south through Islip if you're keeping to your 50 mi limitation (that's actually longer, but I needed some larger cities) or if you want the 160ish mile limit, have that sign installed along the coast at the RI/MA border. These items should help your fantasy land become reality...

Laughable, the "scientist" claiming the science is wrong and he could prove it if only he had his magic wand. And just for the record, I never said any of those things, the average reader can just go back and judge for themselves, unless you use your moderator status to edit/delete/modify my posts.
 
Laughable, the "scientist" claiming the science is wrong and he could prove it if only he had his magic wand. And just for the record, I never said any of those things, the average reader can just go back and judge for themselves, unless you use your moderator status to edit/delete/modify my posts.

Why would I change a thing? To paraphrase Mel Brooks, "Now who can argue with that? I think we're all in debt to Mike for stating what needed to be said. I am particularly glad that these lovely children are here today to hear that speech. Not only was it authentic fisheries management gibberish, it expressed the courage little seen in this day and age. "
 
Just to be clear, I am up in this fishery management bullsh!t up to my ears, Yes, I have my own opinions, which is why I am and advisor to all of the fisheries management authorities. I have tried, unsuccessfully, to get appointed to a council, and I may try again. But there are only two reasons why I participate in these types of discussions: 1) I feel to some extent that I represent the recreational anglers in these advisory positions so I want to know what those people think and 2) to support George in his new venture.
 
And may I respectfully suggest that your penchant for making incorrect statements and proclamations that can easily be refuted with hard data, as demonstrated multiple times in the above discourse, may be a reason you have been unsuccessful in your quest for a council appointment.
 
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Here's another one that's crazy. It seems that Recreational Mortality is LARGER than Recreational Harvest, i.e. with less larger fish around, anglers cull through many fish before catching a keeper. My keeper to short ratio last season was ~ 150:1 so even at a ridiculously low value of 5% mortality rate, I killed 5 times the number of fish I kept. Move that rate to 20%, I killed 20 fish for every keeper.

1549486156417-png.1987

Getting back on track here ......I have trouble believing this data. I was part of a catch and release study done by Sea Grant -Cornell Cooperative extension. That study showed that the survival rate was above 95 % for fish 28" and under. Since I was there for both the capture and releases of the fish I have first hand knowledge. These fish were kept in pens for days after capture, in water I would classify as poor in quality. I watched them swim away. As far as I'm concerned, the data in that graph is worthless.
 
Getting back on track here ......I have trouble believing this data. I was part of a catch and release study done by Sea Grant -Cornell Cooperative extension. That study showed that the survival rate was above 95 % for fish 28" and under. Since I was there for both the capture and releases of the fish I have first hand knowledge. These fish were kept in pens for days after capture, in water I would classify as poor in quality. I watched them swim away. As far as I'm concerned, the data in that graph is worthless.

Can't disagree with you. That's almost as funny, in a tragic way, as a cod meeting a few years ago when the "Statisticians" decided that explained why the used a 100% mortality rate for released cod. Tim Tower (ME Partyboat Bunny Clark) gets up and presents returns from his cod tagging program. When Tim says "So you're telling me it's impossible for ANY returns as you've determined there to be a 100% mortality rate on released cod?" it was hysterical watching the Statisticians stammering and sweating. They eventually decided that maybe 30 or 50%, can't remember which, would be a better number for their models.

Want to get a Statistician to cry? Ask them to go over each of their assumptions and present the rationale for every one That question scares them to death, especially if they have zero first hand knowledge of what their talking about: "Did you assume treble hooks, J-hooks or circle hooks?" always causes the ones that never fished before to go glassy-eyed...

Bottom line IMO is that all recreational data must be taken with about 20 lbs of salt, as using "interviews" and volunteer log book keeping as your source data to extrapolate from is a classic example of "you can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh!t"!! The data are not reliable nor representative to begin with, and they're the foundation of these surveys?? At least the commercial data is based off of tag usage so there's more "base reality there." Yes, you can say "what about the poaching?", but poaching is a game that recs can play too.

Tragically, this IS the "best available science" so this is what counts. Too bad there's no body to oversee if the "Best Available" has any validity to it.
 
Getting back on track here ......I have trouble believing this data. I was part of a catch and release study done by Sea Grant -Cornell Cooperative extension. That study showed that the survival rate was above 95 % for fish 28" and under. Since I was there for both the capture and releases of the fish I have first hand knowledge. These fish were kept in pens for days after capture, in water I would classify as poor in quality. I watched them swim away. As far as I'm concerned, the data in that graph is worthless.
I recall that study. It also involved weakfish catch and release figures. That's a really good point. It would cut mortality in half.
 
If I got it correctly from MM, they use a 5% mortality factor and multiply the MRIP release data by that 0.05...

So to get the numbers on that graph, and by "eyeballing" things. There were 7 million stripers "killed" in 2017, and just about 1/2 of that number, or 3.5 millions is due to release mortality. But to kill 3.5 million at a 5% mortality rate, that means that recs caught ~70 million fish!!

Well now that I think that one over, reducing catch mortality is a pimple on the azz of the problem, overall catch needs to be reduced, BIG TIME because we're basically practicing C&R with these fish. So things like circle hooks, no trebles, etc. aren't going to cut it.

Anything that reduces "catching" by large numbers is going to go over like a fart in church. Strap yourselves in folks, it's going to be a rough ride.
 
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Getting back on track here ......I have trouble believing this data. I was part of a catch and release study done by Sea Grant -Cornell Cooperative extension. That study showed that the survival rate was above 95 % for fish 28" and under. Since I was there for both the capture and releases of the fish I have first hand knowledge. These fish were kept in pens for days after capture, in water I would classify as poor in quality. I watched them swim away. As far as I'm concerned, the data in that graph is worthless.

Not sure what you are questioning. Your experience that about 95% of the released fish survived is the same as saying 5% of the released fish died.

Just to further clarify things, MRIP data does not include anything even remotely resembling "voluntary log books" and the field intercepts do specifically ask about released fish. FWIW - I have a lot of problems about how MRIP data is compiled and how it is used, but their field intercept questions seem O.K. to me.
 
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........ Not sure what you are questioning.

When I look at that graph, I see a problem. First off, I believe the mortality rate used is 8% not 5%. Furthermore, the mortalitily for fish 20" and under was around 1% and 20"-28" was 4% . I don't know what size fish these intercepts were releasing, but I would put the mortality rate at more like
3.5 -4% . That would be 50% less than that graph represents. That's what I'm questioning.

You said you were ok with the field intercept questions. I think there is a major problem with this method for 2 reasons. I don't know the figures as to the extrapolation rate, but I am sure it is huge. Couple that with asking an angler how his day fishing was as opposed to counting the fish in his cooler is not an accurate method of collecting data. Using flawed data to make decisions that affect livelihoods is an injustice.

I don't want to go back and forth on this. Mike, please take the above as my opinion and not as a personal attack.
 
When I look at that graph, I see a problem. First off, I believe the mortality rate used is 8% not 5%. Furthermore, the mortalitily for fish 20" and under was around 1% and 20"-28" was 4% . I don't know what size fish these intercepts were releasing, but I would put the mortality rate at more like
3.5 -4% . That would be 50% less than that graph represents. That's what I'm questioning.

You said you were ok with the field intercept questions. I think there is a major problem with this method for 2 reasons. I don't know the figures as to the extrapolation rate, but I am sure it is huge. Couple that with asking an angler how his day fishing was as opposed to counting the fish in his cooler is not an accurate method of collecting data. Using flawed data to make decisions that affect livelihoods is an injustice.

I don't want to go back and forth on this. Mike, please take the above as my opinion and not as a personal attack.

Not personal at all, as I said, I too have lots of problems with MRIP. I don't know the exact figures for the extrapolation rate, but they are supposed to take the results of the mail survey and then multiply that "effort" by the averages of the field intercepts. Now I'm sure that the field intercept questions are a little fuzzy, but I don't think that the answer to the question "how many of x species did you release" is going to yield a result that is wildly inaccurate as compared to counting fish in a cooler. Especially when it comes to stripers where a fair percentage of fishermen only practice C&R. As far as how that data is used, I agree with you, but for different reasons.

The basic problem is how do we get valid data about recreation catch? To date we have tried at least three different methods and none seem to be completely satisfactory. And I'm not suggesting that the data is skewed or way or another, IMHO the data is inaccurate and that may be in either direction. I just want to see good data, then we can have a rational debate.
 
Well none of us had it correct, they used a 9% mortality factor for the graph below, but Capt13 came closest without going over...

1549812721793.webp


Figure 1. Total striped bass removals by sector in numbers of fish. *Recreational harvest
includes ASMFC estimates of Wave‐1 harvest for North Carolina and Virginia. † Release
mortality of 9% applied to live releases.
 
Well none of us had it correct, they used a 9% mortality factor for the graph below, but Capt13 came closest without going over...

View attachment 2114

Figure 1. Total striped bass removals by sector in numbers of fish. *Recreational harvest
includes ASMFC estimates of Wave‐1 harvest for North Carolina and Virginia. † Release
mortality of 9% applied to live releases.

nysstudy.webp

The New York Study found that 100% of fish 20 inches and under survived. There was a lot of money spent on this study in real-world fishing conditions. I remember it well. I'm curious if ASMFC data has this sort of breakdown because according to NY ASMFC's C&R mortality rates are drastically different. I'd be curious to find out how they get to that number. What we have above are real numbers not pie in the sky estimates. If these numbers reflect what's really happening we could throw out all of the Chesapeake bycatch. By their own claims, there are no fish over 20-inches.
 
View attachment 2115
The New York Study found that 100% of fish 20 inches and under survived. There was a lot of money spent on this study in real-world fishing conditions. I remember it well. I'm curious if ASMFC data has this sort of breakdown because according to NY ASMFC's C&R mortality rates are drastically different. I'd be curious to find out how they get to that number. What we have above are real numbers not pie in the sky estimates. If these numbers reflect what's really happening we could throw out all of the Chesapeake bycatch. By their own claims, there are no fish over 20-inches.

George, do you have a link to that study?
 

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